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Your points are well taken, but like so many other self-described "realists" I've met, you seem much more like a pessimist who just doesn't like the label.
Regardless, I'll counter. You say that once the other OEMs offer an E-moto bike, they'll "crush" Stark. Well then, by your logic, there should be no Beta, no Royal Enfield, no TM, no Gas Gas, No KTM, no Husqvarna, no Vespa, no Ducati, no Triumph, etcetera, etcetera.
Not everyone wants to ride the most "popular" bikes available. Some people are oddball eccentrics and they make oddball eccentric choices that "realists" might find confounding but make perfect sense to me - an oddball eccentric. I can count the number of times I've shopped at Wal-Mart and Costco and/or ordered something from Amazon on one hand - and have two fingers left over. I'd rather pay more at local businesses than shop at those places.
I haven't got a crystal ball, so Stark's future is unknown to me, but my guess is they're clever enough to know how to survive - and perhaps even thrive - simply because they know what they're up against and they actually like the David-versus-Goliath challenge they find themselves in.
But I must admit, I've never been a "realist" when it comes to these matters.
Hey now, don't call me a pessimist just because I don't agree with you
We are probably more alike than you realize, I like to do things to a different tune too. Heck, I am even a 50 year old that races 125s when I am in the 2-stroke mood. And I will admit, I am not a fan of Stark because of their marketing strategies and assumptions they have made with unreal expectations which almost all responsibility falls on them. I just think the "Mighty Blow" is in the works with the big 5 in this arena, and to your point, we will see where Stark lands when the big OEMs level-set the playing field. It sure appears they (the OEMs) have Stark basically parked until they are ready, it will at least be fun to see how it all plays out. The bigger question, which OEM will be the first to build a production bike to take on the challenge? At the moment, I can't tell if it will be Honda or Yamaha, or watch Suzuki blindside everyone and be first to market (which would not surprise me considering the electrified direction the company is headed).
Fun times, and I am glad at least at this point, the driver for building an electric bike is for something fun and different, and not some other BS government mandate or choice/freedom lost - we have had enough of that for a lifetime.
Whether you agree with him or not, I think Tony Alessi makes some interesting points, especially about young riders.
These rules are only for Lorettas. Remember, the AMA has the rulebook. Anything outside that rulebook has to be submitted to the ama and approved as supplemental rules. We have approved several in off road and several as stand alone MX classes. At this time we are not approving mixing of E and Ice bikes on an MX track due to competitive balance issues and safety concerns. This is not forever, we have a working group on e-bikes that includes representation from all of the OEMs and Stark to create technical specifications for the 2025 rulebook that will be inclusive for all electric motorcycles.
It is important to note that the AMA has made no rules prohibiting the Stark or any other electric bike from competing. Our current rules do not allow for it and people are asking for us to make exceptions to our current rules to allow for it. A supplemental rule is an exception to the rulebook. Some are approved, some are not. For example, if someone proposed a supplemental rule that allowed 10 year olds to race 450s, we would not approve it.
Our current rules limit E motorcycles to 60 volts. It is antiquated and thats why we have the working group, to get the technical specs up to date. If I'm not mistaken, the Stark is around 370 volts so even if we said e bikes can race in all classes they dont meet the current technical specs. Again, we should have them updated for 25.
Neither I nor the AMA is anti E bike. We clearly are aware of the technology that is coming. We just have to be smart about it. We cant create rules that allow for a new technology, find that it turns out not to be fair, and then change the rules after people have made buying decisions and manufacturers have made production decisions. That is, in a nutshell, how we ended up where we are.
a quote from my son after riding a Stark for a day: " Probably the most fun I have ever had on a motorcycle!
The Shop
These are for the Loretta Lynn's program (qualifiers and the national) only.
Cool insight. Basically trying not to have the 4 stroke situation occur again like in the late 90’s-00’s.
Hey Josh, wanted to ask you because I know you'd be the one to know. How are things going for taking that off-road here in CA? I know there were some issues with that "Honda" CRF-E2 not getting a sticker so it couldn't be taken anywhere other than private property. Any issues with your Stark or are the not requiring anything at all for it?
I don't have a way of know for sure but I think there is more Amateur racing going on that has absolutely nothing to do with the AMA than tracks that are AMA sanctioned.
Starks have been racing all Spring at the 3 tracks closest to me.
It's honestly a little bit of a crap-shoot, I've ridden mine in national forest land quite a bit and haven't had any issues, but I also haven't run into any rangers either. From what I can tell it's a little bit of a case by case basis because they know you can't get a registration sticker for them, so a lot are inclined to just look the other way and leave it be since it's electric, but I'm sure in other areas you could run into a Paul Blart with a stick up his ass that would give you a hard time. It's really a mess and the state of CA needs to get their shit figured out (not likely I know), because right now we have an EV company that can't sell their bikes, and a bunch of EVs that have been sold to customers that technically can't be registered because their system doesn't know what to do with them. For a state that claims to want EV adoption they don't do much to incentivize it beyond virtue signal with speeches and absurdly unrealistic adoption timelines.
Have you tried the “home build” process where you go to CHP/DMV and say you want to title/register a bike that you built?
Or…make it “street legal” (pretty easy/RMATVMC has a very affordable kit) and then they have to title it…?
Yup, we are more alike than I realized.
I very much agree with your post. What I'd add to it is that, to me, the biggest market opportunity in E-moto will more likely be the 85cc E-equivalent. My reasoning is thus: if you can build something just a bit more beefy and powerful than a Surron or a Talaria, a person could easily take the 3 acres they've got and build a fun, relatively safe, backyard track. Three acres is too small a piece of land to build a full-sized track for full-sized bikes, but it'll do just fine if you're building something for "play bikes" and "practice racers" of all ages and sizes.
You, your kids, their friends, and your buddies, could ride/race whenever the mood strikes, and do it without even having to change your clothes. Just grab a helmet and go ride. This is something I know a little bit about, because that's exactly what I'm building right now, and I am flat-out loving it. Ten times the fun at one-tenth the risk.
In my decidedly uninformed opinion, in the near future, Backyard-Moto-Master Carson Brown types could start springing up everywhere. I love that idea. It reminds me of my excellent childhood back a million years ago.
I'm the last person who could be called an industry insider, I just sometimes perceive a business opportunity when one presents itself. If I were Stark, I would put everything I've got into building 85cc equivalent, and then market that bike as a world-unto-itself. I'd offer all kinds of tuning options, and offer a suspension that could be suited to a rider who weighs less than100 pounds to someone over 200.
Yeah, that was kind of my point, local amateur races - not regional qualifiers or amateur nationals - just your weekend warrior local races. I guess as a vet racer, I am looking at this from the lens of vet open class, local amateur events where you are much more likely to run what you brung.
It would be interesting to see if the Varg sales (re)starting in California has changed anything regarding this registration issue?
I have not, honestly it just hasn't been big enough of an issue for me that I've felt the need to go that route and spend all that time I don't have haha. It's really an annoying set of circumstances though, CA should be rolling out the red carpet to Stark and any other ebike brand but instead they're making it an absolute pain in the ass in every way they can, which should tell you all you really need to know.
This type of back and forth is what I came to this place hoping to see. People going back and forth , being respectful and discussing their opposing views . So much better than the meme wars that sometimes fill Varg threads.
And really, I bet that 99% of everybody on this board has more in common with each other and agree on a lot mor than they do not agree on.
From the looks of the patents, Yamaha might just be working on a supermini sized electric. I was disappointed a little at first. But then thought about how it could be so much more than a super mini. I've had customers mistake supermini's for 125's before. And the CRF150R seems to be getting popular as a playbike. If Yamaha makes their electric supermini sized and offers a full sized wheel upgrade . It could be a step between a Surron and Varg. And like You were saying a great fun bike. The flexibility electric can offer as far as chassis design and power output is what gets me hyped up about electric bikes in general. Stark or whoever makes them.
Ahhhh if you have been an AMA member since 1969 you became I life member (25 years) in 1995 and have not had to pay a penny since then.
Haven't opened one of these cluster fawks in quite a while. Same old stream of bullshit.
Clock is ticking.
Stark: RIP by 2029.
What’s that battery cost to replace and how long does it last? I have a 2007 KTM 200xc in the garage has had three pistons in 17 years. As far as a used Stark, again see my opening question. Just like the used electric car market this is going to be a large issue to overcome. I was at Wray Ford Bossier City LA today and the service manager told me no one will even look at a used EVs for fear of battery life. The one electric Mustang or what they are passing off as one now has been on their lot for 3 months.
Pit Row
Current price is...
If you ride it hard, it will be reduced to 80% of it's capacity (range) after 500 charge/recharge cycles...
If you don't ride it at constant full throttle it will lose less capacity (range) after 500 charge/recharge cycles.
It doesn't stop functioning after 500 cycles, but it does have less capacity (range).
If you've only put 3 pistons in your KTM 200xc, your are not riding your bike hard!
The battery is rated for 500 cycles which should translate to +300 h without losing significant range. Battery is $3000 and guaranteed for 2 years like the rest of the bike (motor included).
That would be $10 per hour "battery cost". See how that compares to your own "engine maintenance cost".
Or course proof will be in the pudding, we will get more real world data in a couple of years. AFAIK there were no significant issues with Alta battery life?
@Sidewinder 1 is getting his EV advice from a Ford dealer, his example is the Ford Mustang Mach-E which has an MSRP of $41,890-$65,390 depending on options, a Mustang Mach-E battery costs $35,329, which is 54% to 84% of the vehicle cost.
Tesla's model 3's MSRP is $38,990 - 50,990 depending on options, with a battery replacement cost of $16,000, which is 31% to 44% of the vehicle cost.
Clearly Ford dealers are not the place to go for advice on EVs, their battery replacement costs are outrageous!
The Stark Varg has an MSRP of $12,900, and a battery replacement cost 23% of the vehicle cost at $2,999, that looks like good value, and you can replace the battery pack in your own garage without specialty tools or knowledge.
@Sidewinder 1 is also riding a KTM 200XC and only replaced the piston 3 times in 17 years, which suggests he's not riding the bike hard, if he rides the Stark Varg in a similar fashion, 500 cycles is likely to translate to 500-1000 hours.
The truth 🫠😂 here we go people
That graph shows a ~20% capacity drop in 500 cycles, not 80%.
That's at least 500 hours. Most gas bikes don't even reach those hours...
Most car manufacturers have battery warranties of 8 years or 100 000 miles/160 000 km (mandated by law in the US, UK...). This warranty also typically covers replacement if capacity drops under 70%.
Cars suck, let's talk about dirt bikes.
Thanks, fixed.
Electric has it's place, some brands perform better than others, some people will accept it, some people will not.
Given the misinformation @Last2Stroke is posting over in the Tech Forum, about 2 strokes, I'm not putting much stock in his opinions on electric bikes. LMAO
I would assume he just made a mistake and meant to say crank shaft. It’s not a far leap to make.
Everybody makes mistakes, if there was a long history of mistakes and deleted posts, etc. But one example is not a reason to totally write off everything somebody has said.
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