Loretta's women's/men 14+

rbigair40
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7/19/2014 6:53am
k cycle wrote:
The racer in this class has a chance to make a statement on this issue. What if, when the gate dropped all the "females" stayed behind...
The racer in this class has a chance to make a statement on this issue. What if, when the gate dropped all the "females" stayed behind the gate. It would be awkward but........
I had the same thought. lol
MX Dad #27
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7/19/2014 7:05am Edited Date/Time 7/19/2014 7:06am
Hey girls can race in the guys class... Why not the other way around. Silly Sick
Because it's the WOMENS class. Not the "A" Class, the "B" Class the +25 Class (none are gender specific).
For ANYONE to defend this is outrageous.
I have personally had some issues with MXSports in the past (Salem IL 2005), I hope this doesn't become another one....
4stroke4DWIN
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7/19/2014 7:16am
This is sport is slowly turning into a clown show at the amateur level. To defend this as "oh it's ok" it's ludacris. Hormone treatments will lower muscle mass but one major thing that hormone treatment won't do is change heart and lung size/capacity/intake. Men on average have hearts that are 25% larger and our lungs are 25-30% larger. The article states that men on average can carry 11% more oxygen than the same size counter part. Here's the article if anyone wants to read it. Bottom line is this "it" has an advantage at least as in fitness.

here
yz763
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7/19/2014 9:27am Edited Date/Time 7/19/2014 9:28am
I really can't believe this is even a question. Our country is so screwed up because of these punk ass little kids with a sense of entitlement. I'm even more over this industry because it is the laughing stock of all sports. I love MX...I just can't stand most of the people in it.

The Shop

hvaughn88
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7/19/2014 9:29am
yz763 wrote:
I really can't believe this is even a question. Our country is so screwed up because of these punk ass little kids with a sense of...
I really can't believe this is even a question. Our country is so screwed up because of these punk ass little kids with a sense of entitlement. I'm even more over this industry because it is the laughing stock of all sports. I love MX...I just can't stand most of the people in it.
I tend to agree with that last sentence...unfortunately
mjskier
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7/19/2014 9:51am
Leaving behind the "this country is going to shit" melodrama for a second. I'm curious how this doesn't run foul of the anti-doping regulations (or maybe they haven't thought about it yet)

Transgenders go through hormone therapy, but who is checking on the levels? How do you make sure a competing transgender doesn't lower their estrogen intake so that male hormones start to kick in and give them an advantage?

NV825
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7/19/2014 9:51am
I feel really bad for the actual girls/ladies that have to race against the ultimate sandbagger. I also do feel for MX Sports because they are caught between a rock and a hard place. Let shim race and these are the reactions they get. Don't let shim race and they get sued for a hefty amount and probably lose because our society thinks it's ok to be whatever the fuck you want to be.

To the supporters of shim, save the whole sob story that was in the first thread about this whole ordeal. This is completely wrong and does show where our country is now heading.
YZ125H1
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7/19/2014 9:51am
Apparently the pro racing has to be fair, but its okay to cheat in the amateurs? This is worse than PEDS they need to fix the rules now its a blatant advantage and not fair to the other female riders. If the other females were/are fast enough I'm sure they would gladly race in the mens class.
7/19/2014 10:08am
Simply require a birth certificate as part of the entry forms in the womens class. If you were born a male, you are ineligible to compete.

A pig can never be a poodle, a chicken will never be a swan, and a man will never be a woman, no matter how hard the PC, bleeding hearts cry.

An act of solidarity by the girls would be fabulous. Don't even roll to the gate. Then let the announcer, powers that be, explain it to all of the fans.
yz763
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7/19/2014 10:23am
NV825 wrote:
I feel really bad for the actual girls/ladies that have to race against the ultimate sandbagger. I also do feel for MX Sports because they are...
I feel really bad for the actual girls/ladies that have to race against the ultimate sandbagger. I also do feel for MX Sports because they are caught between a rock and a hard place. Let shim race and these are the reactions they get. Don't let shim race and they get sued for a hefty amount and probably lose because our society thinks it's ok to be whatever the fuck you want to be.

To the supporters of shim, save the whole sob story that was in the first thread about this whole ordeal. This is completely wrong and does show where our country is now heading.
It's incredible! Some of the WMX racers are even standing up for this dude. If the women are for this....just eliminate women's racing altogether and make them one combined class and see how they like that.
bobby397
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7/19/2014 10:33am
NV825 wrote:
I feel really bad for the actual girls/ladies that have to race against the ultimate sandbagger. I also do feel for MX Sports because they are...
I feel really bad for the actual girls/ladies that have to race against the ultimate sandbagger. I also do feel for MX Sports because they are caught between a rock and a hard place. Let shim race and these are the reactions they get. Don't let shim race and they get sued for a hefty amount and probably lose because our society thinks it's ok to be whatever the fuck you want to be.

To the supporters of shim, save the whole sob story that was in the first thread about this whole ordeal. This is completely wrong and does show where our country is now heading.
yz763 wrote:
It's incredible! Some of the WMX racers are even standing up for this dude. If the women are for this....just eliminate women's racing altogether and make...
It's incredible! Some of the WMX racers are even standing up for this dude. If the women are for this....just eliminate women's racing altogether and make them one combined class and see how they like that.
Tune will change if he wins. Don't want to hear anymore bitching from them about not having a woman's pro national series if he lines up at Loretta's. If they can race with how there they can line up at dilla with the other guys.
Grizz
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7/19/2014 1:03pm
It's funny that we're even having this conversation. On a much bigger scale than MX or even our country... WHO CARES.
jeffro503
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7/20/2014 12:44am
You guys can debate this back and forth all you want,........but the bottom line is ( I think ).......you should race the gender class your were BORN in to.

That dude that thinks he's a chick now.........weather or not if you think it's right / wrong to race against 42 other riders that you know damn well you could work over in a wrestling match any day of the week.....and feel good about winning.......?

I'll just say it right now.........You're a bitch!

Sandbagging isn't even the word I would use to describe you........I think "cheater " would be the word I would use.

And FWIW.....I hope some of those " real " fast chicks kick your ass up and down the track. maybe you can go back to collecting barbie dolls or something?

Do what you want to your own body....I'm cool with that. Just don't compete in MY sport and ruin it for a bunch of others who play by the RULES!
jeffro503
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7/20/2014 12:50am
Hey girls can race in the guys class... Why not the other way around. Silly Sick
MX Dad #27 wrote:
Because it's the WOMENS class. Not the "A" Class, the "B" Class the +25 Class (none are gender specific). For ANYONE to defend this is outrageous...
Because it's the WOMENS class. Not the "A" Class, the "B" Class the +25 Class (none are gender specific).
For ANYONE to defend this is outrageous.
I have personally had some issues with MXSports in the past (Salem IL 2005), I hope this doesn't become another one....
" Because it's the WOMENS class. Not the "A" Class, the "B" Class the +25 Class (none are gender specific).
For ANYONE to defend this is outrageous.
"

Agreed 100%!
Mouse153
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7/20/2014 6:07am
jleews6 wrote:
Its a joke and I cant believe MX sports let this happen. You have 42 girls that have worked hard to qualify and make it to...
Its a joke and I cant believe MX sports let this happen. You have 42 girls that have worked hard to qualify and make it to the biggest amateur race in the world and now they have to race against someone that shouldnt even be in the class. Not only that but one of them wont even get to start on an even gate. Its bull shit and I cant believe DC is letting this happen.
To be fair DC isn't "letting this happen". There is a legal precedence here and it's probably not in the best interest of MX Sports, the AMA or MX to fight this.

I do think that the field should have been kept at 42 riders and if the individual made it then they get a spot, if not then no dice.

7/20/2014 6:23am Edited Date/Time 7/20/2014 6:27am
k cycle wrote:
The racer in this class has a chance to make a statement on this issue. What if, when the gate dropped all the "females" stayed behind...
The racer in this class has a chance to make a statement on this issue. What if, when the gate dropped all the "females" stayed behind the gate. It would be awkward but........
this is the only real option, it wouldn't be awkward IMO, at some point you gotta sacrifice (what you were hoping to achieve at lorettas) and stand up for something. these girls should organize this or when its time to line up, not even show up.

this dude should race with the rest of the dudes...cause he IS a dude whether he believes it or not.
GuyB
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7/20/2014 8:27am
The most disgusting part of all this? Some of the threats (veiled and not-so-veiled) that people have tossed around here. A couple of those people can now watch from the sidelines. We won't be a happy harbor of hate speech or harassment.

As I understand it, the AMA initially disqualified the rider in question, and replaced her with another rider. But after doing more research, it was discovered that they had erred from a legal standpoint. That's why you now have 43 finalists.

From Wikipedia...
"In the United States, classifying a person's sex as male or female is a power which is left to the jurisdiction of the states. As is the case throughout the world, the degree to which a given state recognizes a transsexual person as his or her desired sex varies and is dependent on factors such as the "steps" the person has taken in his or her transition, such as psychological therapy, hormone therapy, and sex reassignment surgery (SRS)."

From what I've been told, getting a new birth certificate in her state is not an easy or simple process, and that it'd satisfy even the most most strict interpretation of what what required for gender reassignment.

And one final note. Much has been made of muscle mass. As noted here (http://www.transgendercare.com/medical/resources/tmf_program/tmf_progra…), "A good deal of the size that is normally attributed to large or broad shoulders, arms and chest is actually contained in upper body muscle mass—not bones. Through the process of feminization much of the upper body bulk will disappear."

If we're going to have a discussion on this, let's at least make it a rational one.
NV825
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7/20/2014 8:45am
Here is a very small snippet taken from the original thread from clmartin22:

"My son who is 10 had commented on how fast she was in the last moto on Saturday. He also saw her blu cru hat and said something about being on the blu cru together. She looked like she had been riding all her life. Threw the bike around over the jumps, was railing rutts, had good form. But she definitely looked different from the other young women on the track. We had just spent the whole week before at Freestone doing camp rev and racing the regional there. Spent a whole week with Kaitlyn Morrow, a girl who can ride with the best of them, and my son had even said she might be better than Kaitlyn. But she didn't look like Kaitlyn, she looked more like Ken Roczen and that is truth. That's how she was built and that's where the problem lies."

It's apparent that this person in question still has the muscle mass of a man, is a very capable B rider against guys, and wants to race against girls that could be just beginning high school. Justify the fairness in this?
GuyB
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7/20/2014 9:03am Edited Date/Time 7/20/2014 9:04am
NV825 wrote:
Here is a very small snippet taken from the original thread from clmartin22: "My son who is 10 had commented on how fast she was in...
Here is a very small snippet taken from the original thread from clmartin22:

"My son who is 10 had commented on how fast she was in the last moto on Saturday. He also saw her blu cru hat and said something about being on the blu cru together. She looked like she had been riding all her life. Threw the bike around over the jumps, was railing rutts, had good form. But she definitely looked different from the other young women on the track. We had just spent the whole week before at Freestone doing camp rev and racing the regional there. Spent a whole week with Kaitlyn Morrow, a girl who can ride with the best of them, and my son had even said she might be better than Kaitlyn. But she didn't look like Kaitlyn, she looked more like Ken Roczen and that is truth. That's how she was built and that's where the problem lies."

It's apparent that this person in question still has the muscle mass of a man, is a very capable B rider against guys, and wants to race against girls that could be just beginning high school. Justify the fairness in this?
I've never met the rider in question, or watched her ride. But...do you really think that gender reassignment was just an effort to be competitive in a class at Loretta's? Or was it a life-altering decision that will last far beyond a race career?

hvaughn88
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7/20/2014 9:08am
GuyB wrote:
I've never met the rider in question, or watched her ride. But...do you really think that gender reassignment was just an effort to be competitive in...
I've never met the rider in question, or watched her ride. But...do you really think that gender reassignment was just an effort to be competitive in a class at Loretta's? Or was it a life-altering decision that will last far beyond a race career?

I've never met "the rider" either, but (playing devil's advocate here) what if the answer to your question was "yes?"
GuyB
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7/20/2014 9:11am
hvaughn88 wrote:
I've never met "the rider" either, but (playing devil's advocate here) what if the answer to your question was "yes?"
I think it'd be quite a stretch to think that's the case.
hvaughn88
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7/20/2014 9:13am
hvaughn88 wrote:
I've never met "the rider" either, but (playing devil's advocate here) what if the answer to your question was "yes?"
GuyB wrote:
I think it'd be quite a stretch to think that's the case.
Absolutely agree. Just curious how much the narrative would change.
Squid-mom
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7/20/2014 9:28am
GuyB wrote:
I've never met the rider in question, or watched her ride. But...do you really think that gender reassignment was just an effort to be competitive in...
I've never met the rider in question, or watched her ride. But...do you really think that gender reassignment was just an effort to be competitive in a class at Loretta's? Or was it a life-altering decision that will last far beyond a race career?

I am absolutely certain that the answer is NO, but that really is beside the point. Daniel(le) is taking advantage of the gray area in an issue that is not black/white. He/she know there is a distinct advantage to a male racing in a female class and that there are currently policies being introduced that will enable her/him to capitalize on those advantages. If not, why didn't the rider just try to qualify in the C class?
NV825
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7/20/2014 9:32am Edited Date/Time 7/20/2014 9:34am
NV825 wrote:
Here is a very small snippet taken from the original thread from clmartin22: "My son who is 10 had commented on how fast she was in...
Here is a very small snippet taken from the original thread from clmartin22:

"My son who is 10 had commented on how fast she was in the last moto on Saturday. He also saw her blu cru hat and said something about being on the blu cru together. She looked like she had been riding all her life. Threw the bike around over the jumps, was railing rutts, had good form. But she definitely looked different from the other young women on the track. We had just spent the whole week before at Freestone doing camp rev and racing the regional there. Spent a whole week with Kaitlyn Morrow, a girl who can ride with the best of them, and my son had even said she might be better than Kaitlyn. But she didn't look like Kaitlyn, she looked more like Ken Roczen and that is truth. That's how she was built and that's where the problem lies."

It's apparent that this person in question still has the muscle mass of a man, is a very capable B rider against guys, and wants to race against girls that could be just beginning high school. Justify the fairness in this?
GuyB wrote:
I've never met the rider in question, or watched her ride. But...do you really think that gender reassignment was just an effort to be competitive in...
I've never met the rider in question, or watched her ride. But...do you really think that gender reassignment was just an effort to be competitive in a class at Loretta's? Or was it a life-altering decision that will last far beyond a race career?

It's most likely a life-altering decision, but s/he is now using it to gain a huge advantage to possibly win a championship that was created to help bring more young girls/women into the sport. I'm not the father of one of these young girls racing in that class, but if I was and this is allowed to happen, then Lorettas will never be part of the future plans.

I'd be very interested to hear the thoughts of the families of girls competing in that class.
GuyB
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7/20/2014 9:36am
Squid-mom wrote:
I am absolutely certain that the answer is NO, but that really is beside the point. Daniel(le) is taking advantage of the gray area in an...
I am absolutely certain that the answer is NO, but that really is beside the point. Daniel(le) is taking advantage of the gray area in an issue that is not black/white. He/she know there is a distinct advantage to a male racing in a female class and that there are currently policies being introduced that will enable her/him to capitalize on those advantages. If not, why didn't the rider just try to qualify in the C class?
So that she could endure a wealth of harassment and ridicule?

That clearly seems worth it.

For those of you who can't figure it out, yes, that was sarcasm.
7/20/2014 10:11am
hvaughn88 wrote:
I've never met "the rider" either, but (playing devil's advocate here) what if the answer to your question was "yes?"
GuyB wrote:
I think it'd be quite a stretch to think that's the case.
hvaughn88 wrote:
Absolutely agree. Just curious how much the narrative would change.
I say if you're committed enough to cut your ding-ding off you deserve a $20 trophy.
Squid-mom
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7/20/2014 10:42am
GuyB wrote:
So that she could endure a wealth of harassment and ridicule? That clearly seems worth it. For those of you who can't figure it out, yes...
So that she could endure a wealth of harassment and ridicule?

That clearly seems worth it.

For those of you who can't figure it out, yes, that was sarcasm.
She had to have known that she would fall under a great deal of scrutany if she proceeded with her plan to win a LL title in a class she is not genetically qualified to compete in. Again, if not to raise awareness or prove some point, why not attempt to qualify in the C class? She may have qualified, participated, and gone home without any harassment or ridicule. My guess is, her gender identity would likely have gone completely unnoticed if she had raced in a non-gender specific class.
GuyB
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7/20/2014 10:54am
Squid-mom wrote:
She had to have known that she would fall under a great deal of scrutany if she proceeded with her plan to win a LL title...
She had to have known that she would fall under a great deal of scrutany if she proceeded with her plan to win a LL title in a class she is not genetically qualified to compete in. Again, if not to raise awareness or prove some point, why not attempt to qualify in the C class? She may have qualified, participated, and gone home without any harassment or ridicule. My guess is, her gender identity would likely have gone completely unnoticed if she had raced in a non-gender specific class.
I'd guess the "plan" was to compete. A win is never guaranteed.
Squid-mom
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7/20/2014 12:10pm
Squid-mom wrote:
She had to have known that she would fall under a great deal of scrutany if she proceeded with her plan to win a LL title...
She had to have known that she would fall under a great deal of scrutany if she proceeded with her plan to win a LL title in a class she is not genetically qualified to compete in. Again, if not to raise awareness or prove some point, why not attempt to qualify in the C class? She may have qualified, participated, and gone home without any harassment or ridicule. My guess is, her gender identity would likely have gone completely unnoticed if she had raced in a non-gender specific class.
GuyB wrote:
I'd guess the "plan" was to compete. A win is never guaranteed.
Of course a win is never guaranteed. But, if the "plan" was merely to compete, why not do it in a gender neutral class?

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