Moto is on the Decline?

12/10/2016 7:05pm
my first race was a 125 beginner class at barona in 97'. thee wer 25 guys in my class alone. I remember practice days there where they had A and B practices. the place was packed. last few times I went there I was almost riding by myself.
kott0n
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12/10/2016 7:08pm
Growth for the Motorcycle, Bike and Parts Manufacturing industry has[i] slowed over the past five years, largely because the aging of the population has reduced demand...
Growth for the Motorcycle, Bike and Parts Manufacturing industry has slowed over the past five years, largely because the aging of the population has reduced demand for motorcycles, baby boomers being the industry's largest revenue source. Additionally, import competition has intensified, leading many industry companies to relocate production abroad.

Through 2021, industry operators are expected to counteract these trends by increasing the efficiency of their production facilities and marketing their products to younger, previously untapped demographics in light of declining sales to baby boomers, who have long comprised the industry's primary customer group.

So how do you Market to the younger, previously untapped demographics ?

My guess is new EFI 2 Strokes. Kids today are more familiar with 2 strokes than 4 strokes. As far as untapped, Less expensive 2 strokes would sure help.

If MX Sports would follow the Euro lead and Hold a 125 2 stroke class at the Nationals and allow 2 Strokes to compete with 4 strokes.....
BobPA wrote:
You cannot actually believe your last paragraph. An EFI 2 stroke will not "save moto". What would they be $800 cheaper then a comparable 4 stroke?
The 2 stroke EFI tech is OLD, literally 20+ years old. The cost difference is minimal.

Not to mention the YZ250/125 that gets very little updates has still managed to creep up in price despite being 10 year old tech, as whole.

I do agree 2 strokes make the sport available to a broader audience. I also agree if we want them to stick around they need to clean up, but EFI by it self doesn't do that, DI does. More specifically DI like the snowmobiles run where its injecting oil after the exhaust port is closed by the piston.

Those sled motors put out insane power and MPG while meeting the strictest emissions standards federally and commi california.

It's been a combination of more expensive machines, higher cost of maintenance and gear, fewer places to ride and the decline of the middle class.
xr70
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12/10/2016 7:12pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Is probably the worst statement.. milestone was absolutely packed... word was glen helen was packed as well. I think this moto industry is on the up...
Is probably the worst statement.. milestone was absolutely packed... word was glen helen was packed as well. I think this moto industry is on the up and up

One thing is, must be a rise of old bikes because i didnt see that many people rocking 15-17s. But alot of nice older bikes.
Calihusky wrote:
Speaking of Milestone, how was the new vet track? They say they brought in tons of new dirt and redesigned the whole thing.
The vet track is great now, I did some laps on it today. Lots of fun, fast and jumpi . They did nice job on it. However not for beginners that much. The Milestone park is very good lately, they doing good job on the tracks. Only one thing! The water truck guy on Friday and weekends always over water the main track , like today. But some people like it , not me. Nobody really was on the main until 10.30 today because of the amount of water he put on in this cold weather.
1
BobPA
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12/10/2016 7:12pm Edited Date/Time 12/10/2016 7:14pm
kott0n wrote:
The 2 stroke EFI tech is OLD, literally 20+ years old. The cost difference is minimal. Not to mention the YZ250/125 that gets very little updates...
The 2 stroke EFI tech is OLD, literally 20+ years old. The cost difference is minimal.

Not to mention the YZ250/125 that gets very little updates has still managed to creep up in price despite being 10 year old tech, as whole.

I do agree 2 strokes make the sport available to a broader audience. I also agree if we want them to stick around they need to clean up, but EFI by it self doesn't do that, DI does. More specifically DI like the snowmobiles run where its injecting oil after the exhaust port is closed by the piston.

Those sled motors put out insane power and MPG while meeting the strictest emissions standards federally and commi california.

It's been a combination of more expensive machines, higher cost of maintenance and gear, fewer places to ride and the decline of the middle class.
I am aware, sea doo (Rotax), Polaris, and Kawasaki had EFI and DFI tech in the jet ski market in the late 90's and early 2000's. They were overly complicated, expensive, and absolute junk when they came out....and are unfixable now. The carbed two strokes are still running from that era and are repaired by the common man...

Do not forget that with DI you also must run and oil pump for the crank bearings as the intake charge is shot right into the combustion chamber
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The Shop

kzizok
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12/10/2016 7:14pm
Aren't current two strokes as clean as current four strokes anyway?
12/10/2016 7:21pm Edited Date/Time 12/10/2016 7:25pm
I honestly think the problem with the sport is just how expensive everything is, obviously bike prices seem to keep rising but so does everything else. I mean you're probably looking at $150 at the least for the gear alone, on top of that you need to buy a helmet but even though there are $200 helmets with the same certifications as the top of the line ones but are supposedly worse. Boots $200+, parts are expensive, very few tracks so you have to drive a ways to get anywhere to ride, unless you're lucky.

My point is you can't expect much growth when the sport is virtually non accessible, especially when you can buy a soccer ball, baseball and bat, basketball for just a small fraction of the price. Then there's the fact that most sports won't put you in the hospital but with motocross there is a pretty good chance you could end up there.

Another big thing I think is with most sports if you're good enough you will be given a college education, with motocross if you don't drop out of school at a young age your chances of making it are a lot slimmer. It's a very niche sport and people looking to get into it are probably often driven away because of price and even if they can afford it usually don't have anywhere to ride.
Will Hanes
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12/10/2016 7:24pm
I started riding back in 1998, I took a couple of years off 2013 until now cause I broke my back and had to have a shoulder surgery. I noticed just in the few years it seems like it has declined a little. A lot of my friends I use to ride with don't ride anymore or ride way less. I think the cost of everything is driving people away.
Pembroke36
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12/10/2016 7:27pm
For me it is simply the lack of areas to ride legally. I haven't personally had a bike in over 3 years now. The last time we rode, my friends truck was towed, on a Saturday, from where it was parked while we were out riding. So he had no choice but to turn himself in. The whole thing ended up costing over $1000 with the tow, storage fees till Monday and the tickets for riding in a restricted area. He sold his bike shortly after and that was my last riding buddy who even still rode.
Will Hanes
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12/10/2016 7:29pm
I remember I bought a 2000 cr125 brand new for 5k otd at john burr cycles, and a 2002 yz125 for 5,400 otd..the good days Woohoo
Pirate421
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12/10/2016 7:37pm
No place to ride for many. Too expensive, it's a double edged sword for tracks, keep gate fees cheap to get people in but when people don't come you have to raise gate fees. I New England it's definitely $35-$40 for a practice day fee, with split practices. Races you're looking at $50-$60 because each little series has their own "daily or yearly membership fee" plus $10 to get in and $40 per class. I raced a Jday and while it was sweet, between the one day $20 membership, $10 entry, $20 transponder, $40 per class I was at almost $100 for an hour of riding. I can't afford to ride one day a week anymore. When I was a kid I rode every damn day for free because all the land wasn't posted and no one complained about the kids riding in the fields.
colorado2day
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12/10/2016 7:46pm Edited Date/Time 12/10/2016 10:19pm
So kzizok,

Your saying if you could by a 2 stroke for 2,000 dollars less than a 4 stroke with a 2 strokes lower parts and maintainnce costs it won't help ?

And a viable 2 stroke series to promote your lower cost 2 stroke wont help either, then what is the answer?

EFI takes away the greens problem with 2 strokes.

You want to Race expensive electric vehicles ?

The cost of new 4 strokes and maintenance costs are why Moto is in decline.

That and aging baby boomers.
Motodave15
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12/10/2016 8:44pm
Motodave15 wrote:
Is probably the worst statement.. milestone was absolutely packed... word was glen helen was packed as well. I think this moto industry is on the up...
Is probably the worst statement.. milestone was absolutely packed... word was glen helen was packed as well. I think this moto industry is on the up and up

One thing is, must be a rise of old bikes because i didnt see that many people rocking 15-17s. But alot of nice older bikes.
Calihusky wrote:
Speaking of Milestone, how was the new vet track? They say they brought in tons of new dirt and redesigned the whole thing.
xr70 wrote:
The vet track is great now, I did some laps on it today. Lots of fun, fast and jumpi . They did nice job on it...
The vet track is great now, I did some laps on it today. Lots of fun, fast and jumpi . They did nice job on it. However not for beginners that much. The Milestone park is very good lately, they doing good job on the tracks. Only one thing! The water truck guy on Friday and weekends always over water the main track , like today. But some people like it , not me. Nobody really was on the main until 10.30 today because of the amount of water he put on in this cold weather.
Vet track is fun, def faster now... heres the catch it literally on has 7 jumps on it... but truth be told only 3 jumps are big. The rest is fast flowy mx, id post some gopro footage but i not going to embarrass myself on the fourms lol
kzizok
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12/10/2016 8:48pm Edited Date/Time 12/10/2016 9:18pm
So kzizok, Your saying if you could by a 2 stroke for 2,000 dollars less than a 4 stroke with a 2 strokes lower parts and...
So kzizok,

Your saying if you could by a 2 stroke for 2,000 dollars less than a 4 stroke with a 2 strokes lower parts and maintainnce costs it won't help ?

And a viable 2 stroke series to promote your lower cost 2 stroke wont help either, then what is the answer?

EFI takes away the greens problem with 2 strokes.

You want to Race expensive electric vehicles ?

The cost of new 4 strokes and maintenance costs are why Moto is in decline.

That and aging baby boomers.
I would for sure rather have the 2t over the 4t for all the reasons you said and more. However, Im not sure there is more of a green issue with today's 2t versus the 4t's. The GP's have the 125 class and there hasn't been a market shift and doesn't appear to lead to an influx of new riders. To that, equal displacement racing has been going on for quite sometime now for the vast majority of races. Even when given the opportunity of equal displacement, the majority are still choosing a 4T.

A viable series (like the GP's or at outdoor nationals) to compete in would be an expensive proposition by itself, thus, virtually any savings with the 2t would be negligable at best. Plus, the exposure would be mainly noticed by people already entrenched in the sport. Virtually no exposure to attract new riders that would help bring the numbers up in MX. Good ideas, however, they are micro solutions to a macro problem.

The 2t might help alleviate some symptoms, but it wouldn't cure the disease. EFI or not.
wfo4ever
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12/10/2016 8:56pm
Most kids and young adults want the newest cars, trucks, smart phones, computers or video games than a street or dirt motorcycle. Local dealers are really hurting in my area, and most people that do ride are buying on-line because it is cheaper and easier than going to the local dealer. Times are changing and it is not being kind to the motorcycle industry. Sad but true.
colorado2day
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12/10/2016 9:08pm Edited Date/Time 12/10/2016 10:15pm
Land use issues are something EVs will help with. But a $14k Alta is not the answer.
Kids EVs like the new gasgas us/ekids are relatively inexpensive and will help with the untapped demographic. Getting kids riding on quiet EVs could go along ways towards keeping motorcycling viable in the future.

You guys arguing against EFI strokes are missing the boat. KTM will have an EFI 2 stroke on the market in the next year or 2. We are not making this up. And new EFI 2 strokes will be quieter than 4 strokes, more fuel efficient and less polluting, so the greens won't have the arguments they once had.
12/10/2016 9:09pm
Crazy expensive. Nowhere to ride. Stupid dangerous on big jumps. I just klunked a double and folded my ankle. I faced major eye rolls at work and home, have ice on my ankle as I type, and fear I'll have to be cut open soon.

Totally inaccessible to new people - how can you ask a newb to spend 12K+ drive 1-2 hours each way every time and risk their well being? Those of us growing up at the track will continue to dwindle. Cost goes up, drive to ride gets further, circling the toilet.

Honestly: imagine bringing someone who can't ride to your track and getting them "hooked". It's become damn near impossible.
mark_swart
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12/10/2016 10:06pm
The tracks that do the best here are the ones that have "beginner" and "vet" tracks. If we want to get new people in, we have to make it more accessible to novices and preferably cheaper, but I just don't know if that is feasible from either end.

It looks to me that a lot of our crowds are now 2nd/3rd generation or Vets. It's not a model for growth.

I'd love to see some technology limited classes (or maybe a price point limited class) that actually fit into the amateur class structure. I do know that for your average novice kid, if there was such a thing as a $3,000 reproduced '87 CR 125 that raced in a class against other kids on the same bikes, they would have just as much fun banging bars as they would on 250Fs. For a fraction of the cost and without the false sense of confidence that 4Ts inspire. Unfortunately there's not much incentive for manufacturers to go down that path.

But I think Vintage is growing...especially the 80s and 90s classes....

colorado2day
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12/10/2016 10:08pm
These 2 things could arrest the decline of Moto

The quiet Alta if it were cheaper and Efi 2 strokes.
When Yamaha and Kawasaki come out with updated EFI 2strokes. And when the Japanese jump on the EV market prices will decline so there may be hope ?

ktms-fuel-injected-two-stroke-breaks-cover

Electric Alta test


EFI KTM

Prototype EV Yamaha

steve_97060
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12/10/2016 10:15pm
These 2 things could arrest the decline of Moto The quiet Alta if it were cheaper and Efi 2 strokes. When Yamaha and Kawasaki come out...
These 2 things could arrest the decline of Moto

The quiet Alta if it were cheaper and Efi 2 strokes.
When Yamaha and Kawasaki come out with updated EFI 2strokes. And when the Japanese jump on the EV market prices will decline so there may be hope ?

ktms-fuel-injected-two-stroke-breaks-cover

Electric Alta test


EFI KTM

Prototype EV Yamaha

wow, you really think efi 2t's are the savior of mx?

when did you actually get in to the sport?
BobPA
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12/10/2016 10:15pm
mark_swart wrote:
The tracks that do the best here are the ones that have "beginner" and "vet" tracks. If we want to get new people in, we have...
The tracks that do the best here are the ones that have "beginner" and "vet" tracks. If we want to get new people in, we have to make it more accessible to novices and preferably cheaper, but I just don't know if that is feasible from either end.

It looks to me that a lot of our crowds are now 2nd/3rd generation or Vets. It's not a model for growth.

I'd love to see some technology limited classes (or maybe a price point limited class) that actually fit into the amateur class structure. I do know that for your average novice kid, if there was such a thing as a $3,000 reproduced '87 CR 125 that raced in a class against other kids on the same bikes, they would have just as much fun banging bars as they would on 250Fs. For a fraction of the cost and without the false sense of confidence that 4Ts inspire. Unfortunately there's not much incentive for manufacturers to go down that path.

But I think Vintage is growing...especially the 80s and 90s classes....

But think about it, will someone spend $3k on something already dated from the factory....or spend $3k and get a really nice YZ250 that is much better bike
kzizok
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12/10/2016 10:17pm
What is up with the EFI obsession?
colorado2day
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12/10/2016 10:27pm
These 2 things could arrest the decline of Moto The quiet Alta if it were cheaper and Efi 2 strokes. When Yamaha and Kawasaki come out...
These 2 things could arrest the decline of Moto

The quiet Alta if it were cheaper and Efi 2 strokes.
When Yamaha and Kawasaki come out with updated EFI 2strokes. And when the Japanese jump on the EV market prices will decline so there may be hope ?

ktms-fuel-injected-two-stroke-breaks-cover

Electric Alta test


EFI KTM

Prototype EV Yamaha

wow, you really think efi 2t's are the savior of mx?

when did you actually get in to the sport?
1972. You ?
EFI will bring back 2 strokes.
Mark my words.
2 strokes are cheaper to manufactuer and maintain than 4 strokes.
EFI reduces emissions and will cut down on smog in the 3rd world where 2 strokes are still popular.
EFI will become cheaper than carbuerators.

Skidaddle
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12/10/2016 10:39pm
EV vehicles including EV mtn bikes are banned everywhere here a motorized vehicle is, because, well, it is motorized.
mxnick
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12/10/2016 10:42pm
Crazy expensive. Nowhere to ride. Stupid dangerous on big jumps. I just klunked a double and folded my ankle. I faced major eye rolls at work...
Crazy expensive. Nowhere to ride. Stupid dangerous on big jumps. I just klunked a double and folded my ankle. I faced major eye rolls at work and home, have ice on my ankle as I type, and fear I'll have to be cut open soon.

Totally inaccessible to new people - how can you ask a newb to spend 12K+ drive 1-2 hours each way every time and risk their well being? Those of us growing up at the track will continue to dwindle. Cost goes up, drive to ride gets further, circling the toilet.

Honestly: imagine bringing someone who can't ride to your track and getting them "hooked". It's become damn near impossible.
You are on the right path - "Totally inaccessible to new people" is the truth.

The main issue facing motocross is that the kids are not coming in.

For every 10 kids that come in and pick up the sport of riding/racing dirt bikes, there is maybe one person who picks up the sport when they are north of say, 25 or 30.

The kids come and go from the sport over the years, but it always stays "in the blood". I would venture to guess that the vast majority of vet riders who we see out at the track or practice track have been riding since they were in their early teen years.

Once that generation goes away, then what? The latest generation of moto kids is small, maybe 1/5 the size of the generation from the 1980's and 1990's.

If the kids do not come into the sport, it creates major long term issues. I am afraid to say, but we have not seen the worst of it yet.
steve_97060
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12/10/2016 10:47pm
1972. You ? EFI will bring back 2 strokes. Mark my words. 2 strokes are cheaper to manufactuer and maintain than 4 strokes. EFI reduces emissions...
1972. You ?
EFI will bring back 2 strokes.
Mark my words.
2 strokes are cheaper to manufactuer and maintain than 4 strokes.
EFI reduces emissions and will cut down on smog in the 3rd world where 2 strokes are still popular.
EFI will become cheaper than carbuerators.



mx836
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12/10/2016 10:50pm
I'm 31 now and can't name very many people I grew up racing that are still around. Turnouts are 50% what they were 15 years ago. I can finally race Vet A and my stiffest competition this year was a 50+ rider. A fast one, but that says a lot about a working middle class 30 year old guys ability to afford racing MX these days. No doubt whatsoever that there has been a major decline. There's a lot of activities to choose from these days and almost every one of them is cheaper and safer than racing MX. Just the way it is in this world we live in now.
mx836
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12/10/2016 10:59pm
Will Hanes wrote:
I remember I bought a 2000 cr125 brand new for 5k otd at john burr cycles, and a 2002 yz125 for 5,400 otd..the good days Woohoo
2001 RM 125... $4100 OTD. 2016 KX450F.... $7000 OTD. Pinch
Katoomey
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12/10/2016 11:19pm
mx836 wrote:
2001 RM 125... $4100 OTD. 2016 KX450F.... $7000 OTD. Pinch
it isn't the price of dirtbikes. it's the fact that middle class incomes haven't increased with inflation in 30 years. And even that isn't the biggest reason

I've said this 100 times. The main reason moto is declining is because people just aren't as interested anymore. Kids aren't interested. Thats it, thats all there is to it.

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