Titanium rear shock springs - few vendors

Edited Date/Time 2/5/2018 2:44pm
I have been looking for a 5.4 or 5.5 kg titanium shock spring for my 2012 CRF450. Besides RCS and DSP, I dont see any other vendors of titanium shock springs and DSP has little info on their site, seeming to prefer to promote their steel springs. What gives....are they becoming less popular outside of the pro ranks? I dont see anyone stocking them and my impression is that you have to call Renton and get one custom wound.
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Mtek
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2/16/2014 6:41pm
I think it is an issue of demand, just speculation, as steel is a lot less expensive being pirchased more. I did a lot of looking and ended up finding the best price new at mx south for an RCS and they have them in stock, if they were more common perhaps the cost would lower. You may be able to find a 5.4 or 5.5 take off from a Yamaha, I have seen the, before in that range.
2/16/2014 6:53pm
I beive a Yamaha YZ uses a 46mm Kayaba shock body while the 2009-2012 CRF450s are 50mm Kayaba shock bodies..would be a tight fit.

What bike did you put the spring on? Showa or Kayaba shock?
Skerby
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2/16/2014 6:53pm
I have a titanium 5.5 spring from a yz450. PM me if interested.
Mtek
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2/16/2014 7:01pm
I beive a Yamaha YZ uses a 46mm Kayaba shock body while the 2009-2012 CRF450s are 50mm Kayaba shock bodies..would be a tight fit. What bike...
I beive a Yamaha YZ uses a 46mm Kayaba shock body while the 2009-2012 CRF450s are 50mm Kayaba shock bodies..would be a tight fit.

What bike did you put the spring on? Showa or Kayaba shock?
I purchased a Showa, but Kyb is the same cost. KTM PDS was higher I believe. They will tell you what they have for inventory, I bet you could get one in a couple days.

The Shop

bd
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2/17/2014 1:09am
2006 - 2014 YZ 125 and YZ 250 have Ti shock springs
slipdog
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2/17/2014 5:20am
The stock Ti springs from a Yamaha will not fit on a Showa shock and newer Yamaha 50mm KYB springs were not Ti.
tek14
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2/18/2014 1:24pm
Kawasaki 250f Showa and 450f KYB take same spring? Kawasaki Showa is still "small" one?
2/18/2014 2:05pm
I tried contacting Renton and Diversified, today.. No phone contact listed for Diversified and the email I got back saying they received my web query was half in Chinese so it seems it is owned by a chinese company. Renton has a contact number and I called their sales, but the only sales guy is out of the office until Feb 25th. Not easy to even talk to a real person about buying a titanium shock spring.
Mtek
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2/18/2014 3:15pm
I tried contacting Renton and Diversified, today.. No phone contact listed for Diversified and the email I got back saying they received my web query was...
I tried contacting Renton and Diversified, today.. No phone contact listed for Diversified and the email I got back saying they received my web query was half in Chinese so it seems it is owned by a chinese company. Renton has a contact number and I called their sales, but the only sales guy is out of the office until Feb 25th. Not easy to even talk to a real person about buying a titanium shock spring.
Here ya go, you will have it in a couple days. Less expensive than going RCS direct too.

http://www.mxsouth.com/titanium-spring-for-showa-large-body-p36036/
2/18/2014 3:33pm
I tried contacting Renton and Diversified, today.. No phone contact listed for Diversified and the email I got back saying they received my web query was...
I tried contacting Renton and Diversified, today.. No phone contact listed for Diversified and the email I got back saying they received my web query was half in Chinese so it seems it is owned by a chinese company. Renton has a contact number and I called their sales, but the only sales guy is out of the office until Feb 25th. Not easy to even talk to a real person about buying a titanium shock spring.
Mtek wrote:
Here ya go, you will have it in a couple days. Less expensive than going RCS direct too.

http://www.mxsouth.com/titanium-spring-for-showa-large-body-p36036/
I just talked to them. It seems that they are the best bet. They told me that Renton is revising their manufacturing process so that the spring rates more closely mirror a steel spring. Because of this, shipment dates are at least 2-3 weeks out, MX South doesnt stock any. I heard that there were complaints that the old manufacturung process resulted in springs rates that were too progressive compared to a steel spring.
tek14
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2/20/2014 1:39pm
Skerby wrote:
I have a titanium 5.5 spring from a yz450. PM me if interested.
PM link seems missing on profile, i could have use for that spring.
JBernard_401
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2/20/2014 3:14pm
why do you want the Ti spring? just to save weight? I was looking into one, even talked to the guys at Diversified and everyone ive talked to has said its not really worth it. spring rates are more over the place than the # on the spring itself, the life is less, and the feel isnt that of a steel spring. this was coming from the guys that make them, so they dont have a reason to lie. its your $, but going to a steel spring saved me like 300$ and im glad i did it now.
2/20/2014 3:25pm
For weight.. I know about the spring rate issues. It is the reason RCS is chaning their manufacturing process right now. If they were problematic and disadvanatges outweighed advantages, I guess the pro's wouldn't bother with them although I do gradually see more and more steel springs on factory bikes these days. Factory Connection and RG3 did tell me that they deal with very few titanium springs.
slipdog
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2/20/2014 3:42pm
tek14 wrote:
Kawasaki 250f Showa and 450f KYB take same spring? Kawasaki Showa is still "small" one?
You can fit a Showa on a KYB, but its a sloppy fit because the id is larger for the Showa. The KYB is too tight to fit on a Showa and the Kawasaki Showa is the same as the Honda and Suzuki Showa. All Showa shocks have been 50mm since '97ish
slipdog
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2/20/2014 4:37pm
Showa springs are 67x64x270 and the KYB springs are 65x63.5x255 so even though they both have 50mm bodies, they take different springs.
1
colson973
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2/21/2014 7:35am
If you have never ridden on a TI spring before you may want to 2nd guess spending the money out of the blue. Even at the right rate they spring back different than a steel spring. I talked with one of my spring supplier about them and they did testing with some of the factory Gieco guys who refused to use TI springs after testing because of the way the bike reacts with them. If you are looking to cut some weight there may be better and easier ways to do it. Even a high quality steel spring will weigh less than a cheap spring.
ML512
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2/23/2014 8:35pm
I would definitely re-think getting a ti spring, what's mentioned here is very true about different characteristics and even inconsistencies. Had a few experiences with some top guys that we would put a ti spring on and it became "un-rideable"... tests were conducted with some of the springs you are looking into.
2/23/2014 11:09pm Edited Date/Time 2/23/2014 11:11pm
Thanks Guys,

Since a lot of top pros are still using them, I would guess that the issue is quality of the spring from the vendors that sell to the general public.

I had read of people complaining that the spring rate is inconsistent and inconsistent through the stroke as you compress it with the Renton and DSP springs. I heard that Renton was revising manufacturing because of this.

I had heard that some like the feel.. that the titanium has a deader feel on compression, and more lively on rebound, and that it provides better traction in braking and acceleration bumps. I also couldnt think of an easier or cheaper way to lose 1.5-2 pounds of weight all at once.

mike
dogger315
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2/24/2014 9:17am
TT, In contrast to the anti Titanium comments, here is my pro Titanium opinion:

I have raced Ti shock springs for many years and wouldn't even think of running a steel spring anymore.
I guess I'm one of those racers that likes the "feel" as you pointed out in your post. To reinforce that, a while
back I ran into a situation where I was forced to switch from Ti back to steel. It didn't go well.

My normal Ti spring (RCS) was fouled by the back of the engine case on my CR500. Initially, I switched to
a steel spring because it had a smaller OD. That solved the clearance problem, but I didn't like the way the
rear suspension felt and after lots of testing, determined it was the characteristics of the steels spring causing
the problem. Now I really wanted to get a Ti spring back on the bike. I contacted RCS and they suggested
a smaller OD spring and a different perch and spring sleeve. I installed all of that, radiused the case a couple
of mm and I had my fix.

Here's a picture of the smaller OD spring on my Showa shock and the radiused case:



For comparison, here's a picture of the normal diameter Showa spring on a Showa shock. This shock is for a CR250
where the case is smaller and clearance is not an issue:



I've also noticed a lot of chatter about Ti spring rates being inconsistent. In my experience, that's more about improper
labeling than actual improper rates. Any spring rate can be calculated by knowing the modulus of elasticity of the material
(spring Titanium = 36,000 psi), coil diameter, spring length and number of coils. Any reputable spring manufacturer will be
more than happy to provide you with those numbers. Armed with that info, you can calculate (or verify), the rate and order
the correct spring for your application. Be advised, Ti springs are "livelier" than steel, so if you run a 5.4 kg/m for instance,
you'll want to specify a 5.3 kg/m Ti spring. Also, be prepared to do some testing to set your shock comp. and rebound up
for the new spring. In addition to the weight savings you already mentioned, due to fewer coils, Ti springs are less likely to
experience coil binding, and Titanium springs provide a more consistent and linear rate compared to steel - just the opposite
of what you have been reading. Another nice addition to your spring stack is a Torrington bearing mounted between the top of
the spring and the pre load retainer. When your spring compresses it actually binds a little due to rotational forces. This
bearing allows the spring to rotate and reduces friction between the spring and the retainer. These bearings are available
from Factory Connection, Pivot Works, etc.

Any time you ask for information on the internet, you're going to get a lot of "opinions". It's a good idea to research
something and get those opinions, but in the end, if you really want to try something new (within reason of course),
go for it. It's the only way to grow as a racer or a wrench.

My two cents.

dogger
2/24/2014 10:16am
Thanks for the excellent post as a user, Dogger. I noticed you have an A-kit shock which comes with the torrington bearing I beleive, I already have the Factory Connection pre-load rings with the bearings.

I still have to wait for RCS to start manufacturing again, however.

What is that white plastic washer sitting atop your shock bumper?

mike
dogger315
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2/24/2014 2:25pm
Thanks for the excellent post as a user, Dogger. I noticed you have an A-kit shock which comes with the torrington bearing I beleive, I already...
Thanks for the excellent post as a user, Dogger. I noticed you have an A-kit shock which comes with the torrington bearing I beleive, I already have the Factory Connection pre-load rings with the bearings.

I still have to wait for RCS to start manufacturing again, however.

What is that white plastic washer sitting atop your shock bumper?

mike
I understand some of the A kit stuff comes with the bearing. Mine is Pro Circuit and does not. A friend of mine
uses Factory Connection and his had one and he told me about it, so I decided to give it a try. It's a nice mod.

The shock on my 500 is a 2006 model and the plastic washer was used for some extra protection for the seal.
I noticed the washers disappeared after 2008, so there must have been some kind of redesign. The other shock
is a 2013 (PC made it special for me since I needed a long body for my 2009 CR250 project).

Did RCS give you a projected availability date?

dogger
2/24/2014 2:32pm
RCS said oit would be a few weeks before they would have any but it sounded a little uncertain.
Mtek
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2/24/2014 2:41pm
dogger315 wrote:
I understand some of the A kit stuff comes with the bearing. Mine is Pro Circuit and does not. A friend of mine uses Factory Connection...
I understand some of the A kit stuff comes with the bearing. Mine is Pro Circuit and does not. A friend of mine
uses Factory Connection and his had one and he told me about it, so I decided to give it a try. It's a nice mod.

The shock on my 500 is a 2006 model and the plastic washer was used for some extra protection for the seal.
I noticed the washers disappeared after 2008, so there must have been some kind of redesign. The other shock
is a 2013 (PC made it special for me since I needed a long body for my 2009 CR250 project).

Did RCS give you a projected availability date?

dogger
Dogger, thanks for all of your insight. It helps a lot of us out and I'm looking forward to trying my new ti spring out (getting a valve and rebuild now). My spring is an RCS. Sorry for taking this thread off track a bit, but would you by chance know what year kit I have here? Thank again.

Pic with steel spring:



dogger315
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2/24/2014 5:33pm
RCS said oit would be a few weeks before they would have any but it sounded a little uncertain.
Mike,

I'll dig around a little and see if I can come up with something more definitive.

Mtek,

Take a caliper and measure the shock shaft. If the shock shaft is 16mm, then you could have anything from 2002 - 2005.
If it's 18mm (that's what it looks like), with the washer present, you could have a 2006 - 2007. The only catch is retrofitting.
As I'm sure you know, A kit parts can be rebuilt and upgraded as long as they are not worn out. For example, you could
have a 2004 shock and PC can retrofit an 18mm shock shaft and larger piston to bring that shock up to date. Normally,
when PC rebuilds a shock, they put a sticker on the back side with the date. See the numbers (just behind the PC logo),
on the picture below for what to look for:



I'm assuming you bought this used, what year did the seller tell you it was?

dogger
Mtek
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2/24/2014 5:59pm
Thanks dogger, yes purchased used. I do not have those numbers, there was a set up sticker and the riders name dating 2008 that I removed. The shaft is 18mm, the matching forks have a Tin coating that is brown, of course billet lugs. They came off a professional WMX 08 Rmz 250, but I don't know the year of the components. Even PC didn't understand no markings. I snapped these pics before I sent them to PC for the rebuild/valve as well as some Xtrigs to bore...hopefully they can tell me something about the year, but they sounded surprised no numbers, not even on the clevis. Another pic before I sent out.

Mtek
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2/24/2014 6:07pm
RCS said oit would be a few weeks before they would have any but it sounded a little uncertain.
By the way TT, apologies for dive bombing your thread...I am learning about Ti springs here too and didnt mean to distract. Just had a few questions for dogger as he was all ready providing some info.
2/24/2014 6:15pm
no worries.. not a lot of first hand info out there about titanium springs. Not sure if everyone that provides info and opinions have personal experience or if it is something they heard.

mike
slipdog
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2/24/2014 6:28pm
My personal experience with myself and another local pro I had testing with me was the Ti springs were not as good as steel from a performance standpoint.
nytsmaC
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5/29/2014 5:31pm
I have an almost new RCS Ti 5.1kg Showa spring I'll sell for half price of new.

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