To answer weeges question (ktm pod)

aeffertz wrote:

So this bankruptcy (according to what Weege was told and reported) is because they invested too much in to pedal bicycles? I find that extremely hard...

So this bankruptcy (according to what Weege was told and reported) is because they invested too much in to pedal bicycles? I find that extremely hard to believe. 

Timo wrote:

Once again, adjusted for inflation modern 450's are comparable to 250 2-stroke prices all the way back to the early 80's. I'll also say, stop acting...

Once again, adjusted for inflation modern 450's are comparable to 250 2-stroke prices all the way back to the early 80's. I'll also say, stop acting like 4-strokes are so hard to rebuild. If you're valves haven't needed adjusted more than 2 times then they don't need replaced yet. A piston kit is comparable to a 2-stroke piston price wise, add in a $50 timing chain and lining up 3 timing marks, oh it's so hard and expensive... There are 14 years olds in shop class rebuilding 4-strokes no problem but a bunch of middle-aged men on here are acting like it's neurosurgery. 

People aren't buying bikes because there's no places to ride close to large population centers. Most of us know all about the 2-4 hours we'll drive one way to ride half a day. Tell that to a non-rider coworker and watch their reaction to it. They think we're crazy, my wife of almost 20 years has just now accepted the fact that I'll drag my bike with me wherever we go for the opportunity of riding somewhere new. I drove 2 hours round trip to ride my mountain bike yesterday, it's crazy but I'm v siting family in Garden City KS and that's the closest actual mountain bike trail to this town. The local bike shop closed down several years ago, no one was buying bikes because there's no places to ride locally. Same issue with dirt bikes in most places. We gotta get local municipalities on board for local riding spots and bike sale would definitely take off. 

Team403 wrote:

The early releases kept stating the motorcycle sales had cooled significantly due to higher sustained % rates driving down affordability.  This take seems to have lost...

The early releases kept stating the motorcycle sales had cooled significantly due to higher sustained % rates driving down affordability.  This take seems to have lost favor to the overproduction dialogue.   

Seems like the saturated used 4T bike market is a key component as well.  COVID bikes are selling pretty at very reasonable prices here in TX.
 

Team403 wrote:

The early releases kept stating the motorcycle sales had cooled significantly due to higher sustained % rates driving down affordability.  This take seems to have lost...

The early releases kept stating the motorcycle sales had cooled significantly due to higher sustained % rates driving down affordability.  This take seems to have lost favor to the overproduction dialogue.   

Seems like the saturated used 4T bike market is a key component as well.  COVID bikes are selling pretty at very reasonable prices here in TX.
 

APLMAN99 wrote:

Slower motorcycle sales and over production are tied together, don’t you think?  You believe you’ll have a certain demand so you arrange your supply chain to...

Slower motorcycle sales and over production are tied together, don’t you think?  You believe you’ll have a certain demand so you arrange your supply chain to deliver the materials to meet that demand and try to have the units to sell when the customer decides to make the purchase. If demand cools, you’ve over produced and the items sit longer than you had expected. 

Fouled Plug wrote:

"So weege brought up the question of what would it take for the dirt bike industry to do something similar and start selling bikes that are...

"So weege brought up the question of what would it take for the dirt bike industry to do something similar and start selling bikes that are not as advanced and therefore a lot cheaper for the avg person?"

Carbureted two strokes. We can all enjoy performance suspension, but with motors the majority of us can work on in the garage and that don't cost a fortune to repair.

As much as I love my modern four stroke, I kind of the miss the days of simplicity. 

kijen wrote:

Seems Suzuki figured it out, evolution vice redesign every 3 or 4 years? Saying that I just bought a 24 fc350, not sure if there is...

Seems Suzuki figured it out, evolution vice redesign every 3 or 4 years? Saying that I just bought a 24 fc350, not sure if there is or could be a better bike for me

Timo wrote:

Once again, adjusted for inflation modern 450's are comparable to 250 2-stroke prices all the way back to the early 80's. I'll also say, stop acting...

Once again, adjusted for inflation modern 450's are comparable to 250 2-stroke prices all the way back to the early 80's. I'll also say, stop acting like 4-strokes are so hard to rebuild. If you're valves haven't needed adjusted more than 2 times then they don't need replaced yet. A piston kit is comparable to a 2-stroke piston price wise, add in a $50 timing chain and lining up 3 timing marks, oh it's so hard and expensive... There are 14 years olds in shop class rebuilding 4-strokes no problem but a bunch of middle-aged men on here are acting like it's neurosurgery. 

People aren't buying bikes because there's no places to ride close to large population centers. Most of us know all about the 2-4 hours we'll drive one way to ride half a day. Tell that to a non-rider coworker and watch their reaction to it. They think we're crazy, my wife of almost 20 years has just now accepted the fact that I'll drag my bike with me wherever we go for the opportunity of riding somewhere new. I drove 2 hours round trip to ride my mountain bike yesterday, it's crazy but I'm v siting family in Garden City KS and that's the closest actual mountain bike trail to this town. The local bike shop closed down several years ago, no one was buying bikes because there's no places to ride locally. Same issue with dirt bikes in most places. We gotta get local municipalities on board for local riding spots and bike sale would definitely take off. 

bvm111 wrote:

I find the cost argument to be flawed when 30-60 thousand dollar side by sides are flying off the sales floor. Here in Vegas every weekend...

I find the cost argument to be flawed when 30-60 thousand dollar side by sides are flying off the sales floor. Here in Vegas every weekend there are hundreds of them rolling around the desert south towards state line with their colored LED lights all over the place making it look like a motor vehicle EDC party! With every on of those is a Huge camping trailer and lifted F350… so people are spending considerable amounts of money and i doubt a 10000 dollar 450 is what’s keeping them from buying MX bikes. 

bvm111 wrote:

I find the cost argument to be flawed when 30-60 thousand dollar side by sides are flying off the sales floor. Here in Vegas every weekend...

I find the cost argument to be flawed when 30-60 thousand dollar side by sides are flying off the sales floor. Here in Vegas every weekend there are hundreds of them rolling around the desert south towards state line with their colored LED lights all over the place making it look like a motor vehicle EDC party! With every on of those is a Huge camping trailer and lifted F350… so people are spending considerable amounts of money and i doubt a 10000 dollar 450 is what’s keeping them from buying MX bikes. 

yak651 wrote:

Kinda hard to strap a 30 pack of Busch Lattes to your 450 bro

bvm111 wrote:

I find the cost argument to be flawed when 30-60 thousand dollar side by sides are flying off the sales floor. Here in Vegas every weekend...

I find the cost argument to be flawed when 30-60 thousand dollar side by sides are flying off the sales floor. Here in Vegas every weekend there are hundreds of them rolling around the desert south towards state line with their colored LED lights all over the place making it look like a motor vehicle EDC party! With every on of those is a Huge camping trailer and lifted F350… so people are spending considerable amounts of money and i doubt a 10000 dollar 450 is what’s keeping them from buying MX bikes. 

Timo wrote:

Once again, adjusted for inflation modern 450's are comparable to 250 2-stroke prices all the way back to the early 80's. I'll also say, stop acting...

Once again, adjusted for inflation modern 450's are comparable to 250 2-stroke prices all the way back to the early 80's. I'll also say, stop acting like 4-strokes are so hard to rebuild. If you're valves haven't needed adjusted more than 2 times then they don't need replaced yet. A piston kit is comparable to a 2-stroke piston price wise, add in a $50 timing chain and lining up 3 timing marks, oh it's so hard and expensive... There are 14 years olds in shop class rebuilding 4-strokes no problem but a bunch of middle-aged men on here are acting like it's neurosurgery. 

People aren't buying bikes because there's no places to ride close to large population centers. Most of us know all about the 2-4 hours we'll drive one way to ride half a day. Tell that to a non-rider coworker and watch their reaction to it. They think we're crazy, my wife of almost 20 years has just now accepted the fact that I'll drag my bike with me wherever we go for the opportunity of riding somewhere new. I drove 2 hours round trip to ride my mountain bike yesterday, it's crazy but I'm v siting family in Garden City KS and that's the closest actual mountain bike trail to this town. The local bike shop closed down several years ago, no one was buying bikes because there's no places to ride locally. Same issue with dirt bikes in most places. We gotta get local municipalities on board for local riding spots and bike sale would definitely take off. 

Team403 wrote:

Well for being so easy they want around $1000 for a top end on a modern 4T.  Not everyone does their own maint.  That isn’t nothing...

Well for being so easy they want around $1000 for a top end on a modern 4T.  Not everyone does their own maint.  That isn’t nothing to most people.  

Good luck on more riding areas - the only portion of the US population that likes dirt bikes are dirt bikers.   We’ve peaked and should be thankful for what we have now. Sad but true..

Moto520 wrote:

I thought Weege missed the mark on thinkin that we don’t want and need the best equipment.  It’s a competition sport and all advantages that are...

I thought Weege missed the mark on thinkin that we don’t want and need the best equipment.  It’s a competition sport and all advantages that are affordable should be used to gain an advantage.   Most of us are. so freaking competitive

Moto520 wrote:

I thought Weege missed the mark on thinkin that we don’t want and need the best equipment.  It’s a competition sport and all advantages that are...

I thought Weege missed the mark on thinkin that we don’t want and need the best equipment.  It’s a competition sport and all advantages that are affordable should be used to gain an advantage.   Most of us are. so freaking competitive

soggy wrote:

I don’t think it’s competitive as much as a dick swinging contest. The most competitive people are the ones waxing everyone in a stocker. 

Moto520 wrote:

Yeah…..you and I know this but the industry needs the spenders

GBS wrote:

Many companies are struggling, Ram/Dodge, GM, Ford, SxS companies, bicycle companies are completely in the tank and now KTM. Its the effects of Bidenomics. Inflation and...

Many companies are struggling, Ram/Dodge, GM, Ford, SxS companies, bicycle companies are completely in the tank and now KTM. Its the effects of Bidenomics. Inflation and High Interest rates have chocked the economy. 

bvm111 wrote:

I find the cost argument to be flawed when 30-60 thousand dollar side by sides are flying off the sales floor. Here in Vegas every weekend...

I find the cost argument to be flawed when 30-60 thousand dollar side by sides are flying off the sales floor. Here in Vegas every weekend there are hundreds of them rolling around the desert south towards state line with their colored LED lights all over the place making it look like a motor vehicle EDC party! With every on of those is a Huge camping trailer and lifted F350… so people are spending considerable amounts of money and i doubt a 10000 dollar 450 is what’s keeping them from buying MX bikes. 

Timo wrote:

Once again, adjusted for inflation modern 450's are comparable to 250 2-stroke prices all the way back to the early 80's. I'll also say, stop acting...

Once again, adjusted for inflation modern 450's are comparable to 250 2-stroke prices all the way back to the early 80's. I'll also say, stop acting like 4-strokes are so hard to rebuild. If you're valves haven't needed adjusted more than 2 times then they don't need replaced yet. A piston kit is comparable to a 2-stroke piston price wise, add in a $50 timing chain and lining up 3 timing marks, oh it's so hard and expensive... There are 14 years olds in shop class rebuilding 4-strokes no problem but a bunch of middle-aged men on here are acting like it's neurosurgery. 

People aren't buying bikes because there's no places to ride close to large population centers. Most of us know all about the 2-4 hours we'll drive one way to ride half a day. Tell that to a non-rider coworker and watch their reaction to it. They think we're crazy, my wife of almost 20 years has just now accepted the fact that I'll drag my bike with me wherever we go for the opportunity of riding somewhere new. I drove 2 hours round trip to ride my mountain bike yesterday, it's crazy but I'm v siting family in Garden City KS and that's the closest actual mountain bike trail to this town. The local bike shop closed down several years ago, no one was buying bikes because there's no places to ride locally. Same issue with dirt bikes in most places. We gotta get local municipalities on board for local riding spots and bike sale would definitely take off. 

Moto520 wrote:

Yeah…..you and I know this but the industry needs the spenders

soggy wrote:

For sure. Just finished that pod, he just dismissed running 3 brands all essentially the same being a big factor. That surprised me. 

Sandberm656 wrote:

I am always baffled why my 1984 Honda XR200 I had when i was 14 was a better bike then the 2008 Yamaha TTR230 I bought...

I am always baffled why my 1984 Honda XR200 I had when i was 14 was a better bike then the 2008 Yamaha TTR230 I bought my step son for his 12th birthday.

Hey motorcycle makers! Put a fucking kickstarter back on beginner bikes and some late 1980's mx suspension. It would be the best bike ever.

 Leave the water cooling off too. I don't care if its slow. Anybody else notice how much fun Carson Brown has on old slow bikes? 

Spoonguy wrote:

I was involved with the state of Pennsylvania's DCNR in hopes to promote and establish more dirt bike trails. It was fruitless. I sent Emails, letters...

I was involved with the state of Pennsylvania's DCNR in hopes to promote and establish more dirt bike trails. It was fruitless. I sent Emails, letters, DMs, etc. to countless industry insiders, racing organizations, the AMA, manufacturers of bikes and parts, magazines, everybody connected to the sport I could think of to give me examples of the positive economic impact, health benefits. positive influence, etc. of dirt bikes and I only received one reply - from the Coombs family - nobody else. Government officials in my state in charge of outdoor recreation literally have no idea of the positive impact of the AMA motocross races, GNCC, AWARCS, Back country discovery routes, or anything remotely relating to dirt bikes that promotes my state or outdoor recreation within it. They literally do not believe you when you try to explain events like these to them. One executive appointee of the state I advocated that we needed to promote dirt biking in my state sent me flyers printed out with Harley riders on them road riding through state forests. Nobody, I repeat nobody gives a shit about dirt bikes, even the people who profit from them and ride them. Snowmobilers, UTVers, Mnt. bikers, equestrians, all organize, spend money ,volunteer, spend time, make concessions based on people's concerns, and advocate for their sport. Dirt bikers are too individualistic to organize, four stroke riders suck, electric dirt bikes suck, dual sport riders are pussies, you can't handle a bike like this, Triumphs suck they are just another KTM, on and on we denigrate our sport and others involved. Nobody is willing to make any concessions for inclusiveness or to make the sport less offensive to those it offends. While at the same time most of us won't do shit to promote it. This sport is doomed because of our own elitist attitude. If somebody says our bikes are too loud, maybe they are not an asshole, maybe the bike is too loud. If somebody says our bikes tear up the woods too much, maybe they are not an asshole either, maybe we could try less aggressive tires or adapt our riding styles to less damage. God as my witness, I tried for our sports behalf, I want my grandkids to love this sport like I do, but nobody gives a shit. Anxiously awaiting "the UTVs tear up the trails more than we do" narrative, that is not the point. The point is the public perception and the "friendliess" of our sport. When people think of dirt bikes, they think of Travis backflipping and pranging himself into a million pieces, or that half of pro racers in our sport can't finish a season without injury, when they think of UTVs they think of parents in a beer buggy with their kids in the woods.

Spoonguy wrote:

I was involved with the state of Pennsylvania's DCNR in hopes to promote and establish more dirt bike trails. It was fruitless. I sent Emails, letters...

I was involved with the state of Pennsylvania's DCNR in hopes to promote and establish more dirt bike trails. It was fruitless. I sent Emails, letters, DMs, etc. to countless industry insiders, racing organizations, the AMA, manufacturers of bikes and parts, magazines, everybody connected to the sport I could think of to give me examples of the positive economic impact, health benefits. positive influence, etc. of dirt bikes and I only received one reply - from the Coombs family - nobody else. Government officials in my state in charge of outdoor recreation literally have no idea of the positive impact of the AMA motocross races, GNCC, AWARCS, Back country discovery routes, or anything remotely relating to dirt bikes that promotes my state or outdoor recreation within it. They literally do not believe you when you try to explain events like these to them. One executive appointee of the state I advocated that we needed to promote dirt biking in my state sent me flyers printed out with Harley riders on them road riding through state forests. Nobody, I repeat nobody gives a shit about dirt bikes, even the people who profit from them and ride them. Snowmobilers, UTVers, Mnt. bikers, equestrians, all organize, spend money ,volunteer, spend time, make concessions based on people's concerns, and advocate for their sport. Dirt bikers are too individualistic to organize, four stroke riders suck, electric dirt bikes suck, dual sport riders are pussies, you can't handle a bike like this, Triumphs suck they are just another KTM, on and on we denigrate our sport and others involved. Nobody is willing to make any concessions for inclusiveness or to make the sport less offensive to those it offends. While at the same time most of us won't do shit to promote it. This sport is doomed because of our own elitist attitude. If somebody says our bikes are too loud, maybe they are not an asshole, maybe the bike is too loud. If somebody says our bikes tear up the woods too much, maybe they are not an asshole either, maybe we could try less aggressive tires or adapt our riding styles to less damage. God as my witness, I tried for our sports behalf, I want my grandkids to love this sport like I do, but nobody gives a shit. Anxiously awaiting "the UTVs tear up the trails more than we do" narrative, that is not the point. The point is the public perception and the "friendliess" of our sport. When people think of dirt bikes, they think of Travis backflipping and pranging himself into a million pieces, or that half of pro racers in our sport can't finish a season without injury, when they think of UTVs they think of parents in a beer buggy with their kids in the woods.

Moto520 wrote:

Yeah…..you and I know this but the industry needs the spenders

soggy wrote:

For sure. Just finished that pod, he just dismissed running 3 brands all essentially the same being a big factor. That surprised me. 

TAUTOG wrote:

The 3 brands thing is crazy to me with how close they are. Take the Gas Gas line and make it entry level bikes that are...

The 3 brands thing is crazy to me with how close they are. Take the Gas Gas line and make it entry level bikes that are much cheaper and simpler. 

soggy wrote:

For sure. Just finished that pod, he just dismissed running 3 brands all essentially the same being a big factor. That surprised me. 

TAUTOG wrote:

The 3 brands thing is crazy to me with how close they are. Take the Gas Gas line and make it entry level bikes that are...

The 3 brands thing is crazy to me with how close they are. Take the Gas Gas line and make it entry level bikes that are much cheaper and simpler. 

soggy wrote:

That might have worked, but that is an extremely expensive avenue to go down because they don’t have mold or tooling or r&d on play bikes/entry...

That might have worked, but that is an extremely expensive avenue to go down because they don’t have mold or tooling or r&d on play bikes/entry level. No one was clamoring for ktm to make a crf230 competitor the rent way people are asking the Japanese to make a 350.