450’s too fast, fact or fiction?

Pigspit
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Pigspit 4/5/2018 8:55pm
4/5/2018 8:55pm
There is an easy way to find out. Lower the weight minimum by 10 or 20 lbs in the 450 class, and see if guys start riding smaller bikes like 350s or 250s. If the smaller, lighter bikes are competitive, then yes: the power of a 450 is not needed.
Dirty Points 4/5/2018 9:21pm
4/5/2018 9:21pm Edited Date/Time 4/5/2018 9:30pm
Pigspit wrote:
There is an easy way to find out. Lower the weight minimum by 10 or 20 lbs in the 450 class, and see if guys start...
There is an easy way to find out. Lower the weight minimum by 10 or 20 lbs in the 450 class, and see if guys start riding smaller bikes like 350s or 250s. If the smaller, lighter bikes are competitive, then yes: the power of a 450 is not needed.
They are already allowed to ride 250s in the 450 class under their corresponding (lighter) weight limits.
TogaSet
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TogaSet 4/5/2018 9:45pm
4/5/2018 9:45pm
Forty wrote:
its All fun and games on the 450 till it hooks up and puts your ass out for the count. Gotta respect 50 Plus hp I...
its All fun and games on the 450 till it hooks up and puts your ass out for the count. Gotta respect 50 Plus hp I don’t care who you are.
Exactly.
JMX82
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JMX82 4/5/2018 10:00pm
4/5/2018 10:00pm
When has words like "being lazy on the bike", "lugging", "torquing", "short shifting" have become part of motocross?

The tracks today are more risk and reward type and less skill is required to go faster than before. Small crashes happen less often than in two stroke era but when heavy 450 get's out of hand in high speed it usually doesn't end well...

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wfo4ever
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wfo4ever 4/6/2018 7:28am
4/6/2018 7:28am
JMX82 wrote:
When has words like "being lazy on the bike", "lugging", "torquing", "short shifting" have become part of motocross? The tracks today are more risk and reward...
When has words like "being lazy on the bike", "lugging", "torquing", "short shifting" have become part of motocross?

The tracks today are more risk and reward type and less skill is required to go faster than before. Small crashes happen less often than in two stroke era but when heavy 450 get's out of hand in high speed it usually doesn't end well...
Words used in Motocross used to be "On The Pipe" and "WFO" back when we all mixed gas and oil. Supercross and Outdoor Motocross racing used to be a lot more exciting and there were more riders passing for the lead. Yes we did have the McGrath and RC era. But in the last two supercross races, 1st place won the race by 20 and 30 seconds over 2nd place, that is not even a race. You do not see that in other Motorsports. But I get it that most of the top factory riders are out with injuries due to the lets just say the "4 Stroke Blues". If you want to see a good example of motorcycle racing watch the Atlanta Supercross from 1990. The riders were all on 250 2-Strokes going "WFO" and "Racing Bar to Bar" for the win and their was like 10 different top factory riders that lead the race. Jeff Ward won with a last lap pass. We don't even have 10 top factory riders left in the 450 class because of injuries, they all have the "4 Stroke Blues". The worst thing is riders of any skill level getting seriously hurt with life changing injuries or loosing their life in this sport.
TheOriginalPancakee 4/6/2018 7:43am
4/6/2018 7:43am
yz133rider wrote:
Id argue that modern factory 250fs are as fast or faster than factory 250 2 strokes. They make 50+hp. Much wider power spread Much more traction...
Id argue that modern factory 250fs are as fast or faster than factory 250 2 strokes.
They make 50+hp.
Much wider power spread
Much more traction and better power delivery

All that leads to more traction more hooked up, smoother and more speed. They can do big obstacles right out of turns, the power stretches far and can do huge combos etc.

The 2 strokes were much peakier, much more wheel spin, much more difficult to string huge combos together let alone clean laps


So yes 450s are clearly too much.
The 250fs are obviously massively faster than 125s every were. Like a different planet. So that puts them right with the 250 2 strokes of 12+ years ago if not ahead of them due to the power spread and delivery

Now 450s are even more power, more tq, more power spread, more hooked up and faster

The speeds and obstacles now are another level than before, and when something goes wrong the results are like Cole Seelys broken pelvis and his insides literally torn in half from his torso to hips.
early wrote:
Ironically, Cole's injury resulted from him [u]not[/u] giving it the full beans for fear of going long on the jump combo (he says this on a...
Ironically, Cole's injury resulted from him not giving it the full beans for fear of going long on the jump combo (he says this on a dmxs interview).
Lol right. Seely cased the hell outta that!
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 4/6/2018 8:00am
4/6/2018 8:00am
mxer807 wrote:
This is kinda like ban guns because guns kill people , people don’t kill people.... the 450 machines don’t make people hurt them selves. The pilot...
This is kinda like ban guns because guns kill people , people don’t kill people.... the 450 machines don’t make people hurt them selves. The pilot is in control of the throttle , the brakes, the gears... 450’s aren’t too fast. Ride the bike as fast or as slow as you want...
Yes, you give yours up and I'll keep mine. Don't try to legislate what I can buy, I'm sure my next bike after my 480 will be even faster and easier to ride, an Alta. Knock yourself out and pick something else, but don't tell me what to do.

mxer807
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mxer807 4/6/2018 9:07am
4/6/2018 9:07am
JMX82 wrote:
When has words like "being lazy on the bike", "lugging", "torquing", "short shifting" have become part of motocross? The tracks today are more risk and reward...
When has words like "being lazy on the bike", "lugging", "torquing", "short shifting" have become part of motocross?

The tracks today are more risk and reward type and less skill is required to go faster than before. Small crashes happen less often than in two stroke era but when heavy 450 get's out of hand in high speed it usually doesn't end well...
wfo4ever wrote:
Words used in Motocross used to be "On The Pipe" and "WFO" back when we all mixed gas and oil. Supercross and Outdoor Motocross racing used...
Words used in Motocross used to be "On The Pipe" and "WFO" back when we all mixed gas and oil. Supercross and Outdoor Motocross racing used to be a lot more exciting and there were more riders passing for the lead. Yes we did have the McGrath and RC era. But in the last two supercross races, 1st place won the race by 20 and 30 seconds over 2nd place, that is not even a race. You do not see that in other Motorsports. But I get it that most of the top factory riders are out with injuries due to the lets just say the "4 Stroke Blues". If you want to see a good example of motorcycle racing watch the Atlanta Supercross from 1990. The riders were all on 250 2-Strokes going "WFO" and "Racing Bar to Bar" for the win and their was like 10 different top factory riders that lead the race. Jeff Ward won with a last lap pass. We don't even have 10 top factory riders left in the 450 class because of injuries, they all have the "4 Stroke Blues". The worst thing is riders of any skill level getting seriously hurt with life changing injuries or loosing their life in this sport.
They are getting hurt because their riding ability/speed is way faster than prior generations . +they take bigger risks. I remember an article being written about some pros riding 2 strokes and 4 strokes back to back at perris when 2 strokes were making a comeback and their lap times were 1 to 2 seconds faster on the 2 stroke. They also stated the 2 stroke peak hp was higher than the peak hp of a 450.
mxer807
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mxer807 4/6/2018 9:09am
4/6/2018 9:09am
mxer807 wrote:
This is kinda like ban guns because guns kill people , people don’t kill people.... the 450 machines don’t make people hurt them selves. The pilot...
This is kinda like ban guns because guns kill people , people don’t kill people.... the 450 machines don’t make people hurt them selves. The pilot is in control of the throttle , the brakes, the gears... 450’s aren’t too fast. Ride the bike as fast or as slow as you want...
Johnny Depp wrote:
Yes, you give yours up and I'll keep mine. Don't try to legislate what I can buy, I'm sure my next bike after my 480 will...
Yes, you give yours up and I'll keep mine. Don't try to legislate what I can buy, I'm sure my next bike after my 480 will be even faster and easier to ride, an Alta. Knock yourself out and pick something else, but don't tell me what to do.

I was being sarcastic when I said guns kills people , people don’t kill people... I’m keepin my 450. Or gun. Or what ever you were talking about. LOL. Smile
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 4/6/2018 9:27am
4/6/2018 9:27am
That was not back at you, but agreeing with you. You were the 1st to compare it to guns, good analogy.
SoCalMX70
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SoCalMX70 4/6/2018 9:54am
4/6/2018 9:54am
Johnny Depp wrote:
That was not back at you, but agreeing with you. You were the 1st to compare it to guns, good analogy.
More like an incredibly stupid analogy. Don't legislate? I'll keep mine? What the fuck does that have to do with the health of racing and the sport? Don't dumb down a healthy discussion with a stupid political analogy.

Can't wait to not watch this weekend's race... With all those healthy 450 guys battling in a tight championship...
seth505
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seth505 4/6/2018 9:56am
4/6/2018 9:56am
Johnny Depp wrote:
That was not back at you, but agreeing with you. You were the 1st to compare it to guns, good analogy.
I gotta ask how was that a good analogy?
SoCalMX70
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SoCalMX70 4/6/2018 9:56am
4/6/2018 9:56am
Also, I don't think anyone cried too much when the 500 2-strokes went away... And for anyone that misses them, you can still find them or have them built, and race them at your local track! Dont worry, you won't be arrested. Fun for everyone!
BobKerr
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BobKerr 4/6/2018 9:57am
4/6/2018 9:57am
Not everyone is 5'8" and 145 lbs. I'm 6'2" 200 lbs with no clothes straight out of bed in the morning. Some of us need mo powa!
Forty
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Forty 4/6/2018 9:59am
4/6/2018 9:59am
Johnny Depp wrote:
That was not back at you, but agreeing with you. You were the 1st to compare it to guns, good analogy.
SoCalMX70 wrote:
More like an incredibly stupid analogy. Don't legislate? I'll keep mine? What the fuck does that have to do with the health of racing and the...
More like an incredibly stupid analogy. Don't legislate? I'll keep mine? What the fuck does that have to do with the health of racing and the sport? Don't dumb down a healthy discussion with a stupid political analogy.

Can't wait to not watch this weekend's race... With all those healthy 450 guys battling in a tight championship...
lol'd
mxer807
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mxer807 4/6/2018 10:03am
4/6/2018 10:03am
Lol. Are you one of the guys telling all the tracks to tame down their jumps cuz they are too big ? I bet so...
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 4/6/2018 10:06am
4/6/2018 10:06am
Johnny Depp wrote:
That was not back at you, but agreeing with you. You were the 1st to compare it to guns, good analogy.
SoCalMX70 wrote:
More like an incredibly stupid analogy. Don't legislate? I'll keep mine? What the fuck does that have to do with the health of racing and the...
More like an incredibly stupid analogy. Don't legislate? I'll keep mine? What the fuck does that have to do with the health of racing and the sport? Don't dumb down a healthy discussion with a stupid political analogy.

Can't wait to not watch this weekend's race... With all those healthy 450 guys battling in a tight championship...
Forty wrote:
lol'd
Maybe read the thread title?

I made myself perfectly clear, I will speak with my wallet, you can speak with yours.
JMX82
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JMX82 4/6/2018 10:19am
4/6/2018 10:19am
mxer807 wrote:
They are getting hurt because their riding ability/speed is way faster than prior generations . +they take bigger risks. I remember an article being written about...
They are getting hurt because their riding ability/speed is way faster than prior generations . +they take bigger risks. I remember an article being written about some pros riding 2 strokes and 4 strokes back to back at perris when 2 strokes were making a comeback and their lap times were 1 to 2 seconds faster on the 2 stroke. They also stated the 2 stroke peak hp was higher than the peak hp of a 450.
Faster and easier to ride bikes doesn't make current generation riders better than previous generation riders

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RCMXracing
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RCMXracing 4/6/2018 10:22am
4/6/2018 10:22am
Two things:
1) I’ve never ridden a 500. Guys that have when they stopped making them did it piss you off? If not for 450’s would you still want to ride and race a 500?
2) I don’t understand the lazy 450 rider comments. I guess it’s how you ride one. For me they are more work and more tiring. I can go 20 min full blast on a 250F, and about 10 on a 450.
Pigspit
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Pigspit 4/6/2018 10:32am
4/6/2018 10:32am
Pigspit wrote:
There is an easy way to find out. Lower the weight minimum by 10 or 20 lbs in the 450 class, and see if guys start...
There is an easy way to find out. Lower the weight minimum by 10 or 20 lbs in the 450 class, and see if guys start riding smaller bikes like 350s or 250s. If the smaller, lighter bikes are competitive, then yes: the power of a 450 is not needed.
Dirty Points wrote:
They are already allowed to ride 250s in the 450 class under their corresponding (lighter) weight limits.
Ah good point. 212 lbs for a 250, 220 lbs for a 450. What is the magic weight for a 250 to become compelling?

220lb 450
210lb 350
200lb 250

I don't really like the weight minimums anyway, but it is an interesting thought experiment.
mxer807
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mxer807 4/6/2018 10:39am
4/6/2018 10:39am
mxer807 wrote:
They are getting hurt because their riding ability/speed is way faster than prior generations . +they take bigger risks. I remember an article being written about...
They are getting hurt because their riding ability/speed is way faster than prior generations . +they take bigger risks. I remember an article being written about some pros riding 2 strokes and 4 strokes back to back at perris when 2 strokes were making a comeback and their lap times were 1 to 2 seconds faster on the 2 stroke. They also stated the 2 stroke peak hp was higher than the peak hp of a 450.
JMX82 wrote:
Faster and easier to ride bikes doesn't make current generation riders better than previous generation riders
That’s what I’m saying . The riders ability’s/speed now is faster than previous generations riders /racers. Previous generation racers didn’t train nearly as hard , and went out and partied the night before the race and still killed it. You can’t do that now. I don’t think faster bikes has anything to do with it.
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Titan1 4/6/2018 10:40am
4/6/2018 10:40am Edited Date/Time 4/6/2018 7:51pm
RCMXracing wrote:
Two things: 1) I’ve never ridden a 500. Guys that have when they stopped making them did it piss you off? If not for 450’s would...
Two things:
1) I’ve never ridden a 500. Guys that have when they stopped making them did it piss you off? If not for 450’s would you still want to ride and race a 500?
2) I don’t understand the lazy 450 rider comments. I guess it’s how you ride one. For me they are more work and more tiring. I can go 20 min full blast on a 250F, and about 10 on a 450.
They are so easy to ride that you can be lazy on them and still go fast...but so hard to ride that they beat you up and wear you out. That's what I'm reading in this thread...both are somehow true?

For the record...I like my 450...I've never felt it had "too much" power...though I certainly don't use all of it all of the time I sure like her long legs and big lungs on the wide open sections of trails in the desert (I'm desert racer) where I can really let 'er stretch her legs (though I run stock gearing on my KX...80mph is fast enough for me...I'll leave the triple digit speeds to the pros)...in the tight/technical stuff admittedly she is too much bike for me (to much weight, not necessarily power).

I think 450's have their place in the racing world...as much fun as it is to watch a pro wring the neck of a 250...I'm equally impressed and enjoy watching a pro glide around the track with low RPM’s on a 450. Different skill sets, but both equally impressive to me. And of course, who doesn't like watching Tomac, Roczen, RV, Cairoli, etc. wring the neck of a 450? I'm mean come on...

if someone doesn't like them, don't buy one.
magoo1982
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magoo1982 4/6/2018 10:57am
4/6/2018 10:57am
RCMXracing wrote:
Two things: 1) I’ve never ridden a 500. Guys that have when they stopped making them did it piss you off? If not for 450’s would...
Two things:
1) I’ve never ridden a 500. Guys that have when they stopped making them did it piss you off? If not for 450’s would you still want to ride and race a 500?
2) I don’t understand the lazy 450 rider comments. I guess it’s how you ride one. For me they are more work and more tiring. I can go 20 min full blast on a 250F, and about 10 on a 450.
Loved 500s , last new bike I purchased was 03 KX 500 , plus motors last along time with proper service .. have never owned new 450 cause several of old riding buds had theirs blow up even with proper service .. they went back to 500s also ...
mx317
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mx317 4/6/2018 11:16am
4/6/2018 11:16am
JMX82 wrote:
When has words like "being lazy on the bike", "lugging", "torquing", "short shifting" have become part of motocross? The tracks today are more risk and reward...
When has words like "being lazy on the bike", "lugging", "torquing", "short shifting" have become part of motocross?

The tracks today are more risk and reward type and less skill is required to go faster than before. Small crashes happen less often than in two stroke era but when heavy 450 get's out of hand in high speed it usually doesn't end well...
Since 500 2-strokes were around you heard those words. Anybody that revved a 500 2-stroke was asking for trouble and a lot of vibration.
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Zachintosh 4/6/2018 11:22am
4/6/2018 11:22am
IMO 450s are unnecessarily powerful, but that's why we have freedom of choice. Don't like 450s? Buy a 350F, or a 250F, or a 250 2T, 144 2T, 125 2T, or an Alta...
mxer807
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mxer807 4/6/2018 11:24am
4/6/2018 11:24am
JMX82 wrote:
When has words like "being lazy on the bike", "lugging", "torquing", "short shifting" have become part of motocross? The tracks today are more risk and reward...
When has words like "being lazy on the bike", "lugging", "torquing", "short shifting" have become part of motocross?

The tracks today are more risk and reward type and less skill is required to go faster than before. Small crashes happen less often than in two stroke era but when heavy 450 get's out of hand in high speed it usually doesn't end well...
mx317 wrote:
Since 500 2-strokes were around you heard those words. Anybody that revved a 500 2-stroke was asking for trouble and a lot of vibration.
Not this guy!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KXOIc9QHUfw
JMX82
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JMX82 4/6/2018 11:50am
4/6/2018 11:50am
mxer807 wrote:
That’s what I’m saying . The riders ability’s/speed now is faster than previous generations riders /racers. Previous generation racers didn’t train nearly as hard , and...
That’s what I’m saying . The riders ability’s/speed now is faster than previous generations riders /racers. Previous generation racers didn’t train nearly as hard , and went out and partied the night before the race and still killed it. You can’t do that now. I don’t think faster bikes has anything to do with it.
Even though there where no training camps like Bakers' Factory you can't say that earlier generation riders weren't fit. Have you ever tried riding early 90's bikes? It's the equipment that is allowing higher speed and not the riders.
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mxer807 4/6/2018 12:09pm
4/6/2018 12:09pm Edited Date/Time 4/6/2018 12:10pm
mxer807 wrote:
That’s what I’m saying . The riders ability’s/speed now is faster than previous generations riders /racers. Previous generation racers didn’t train nearly as hard , and...
That’s what I’m saying . The riders ability’s/speed now is faster than previous generations riders /racers. Previous generation racers didn’t train nearly as hard , and went out and partied the night before the race and still killed it. You can’t do that now. I don’t think faster bikes has anything to do with it.
JMX82 wrote:
Even though there where no training camps like Bakers' Factory you can't say that earlier generation riders weren't fit. Have you ever tried riding early 90's...
Even though there where no training camps like Bakers' Factory you can't say that earlier generation riders weren't fit. Have you ever tried riding early 90's bikes? It's the equipment that is allowing higher speed and not the riders.
I somewhat agree..but you don’t think anyone’s approach has changed? Riding every day, or on the day they aren’t riding hitting the gym, sticking to strict food diets? The equiptment has definitely evolved but that’s only a small part of how fast they are going. Shit back in October when I first bought my 18 husky 450, I raced an ama big 6 gp in ridgecrest. Intermediate open. I got second place. The kid that got first ? He was on a 1980’s generation cr 250 or 500, and waxed me. Shoulda seen how fast he went through an enduro section with concrete curbs and tires, I was amazed lol.
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MPJC 4/6/2018 12:13pm
4/6/2018 12:13pm
mxer807 wrote:
That’s what I’m saying . The riders ability’s/speed now is faster than previous generations riders /racers. Previous generation racers didn’t train nearly as hard , and...
That’s what I’m saying . The riders ability’s/speed now is faster than previous generations riders /racers. Previous generation racers didn’t train nearly as hard , and went out and partied the night before the race and still killed it. You can’t do that now. I don’t think faster bikes has anything to do with it.
Baily and O'Mara weren't fit? True, training methods have become more specialized, and that has helped riders to be faster. But that can't be the whole story. Between the chassis and suspension changes and the broader, more tractable powerbands, modern bikes are massively better. It strikes me as implausible to say that that's got nothing to do with increased speed (though it's as much track design as machines in supercross).
David934
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David934 4/6/2018 12:15pm
4/6/2018 12:15pm
I think my 450 have more overall power then my 500 2T. Probably when you put modern 450 engine to old chassis, it can be worst bike ever.

Post a reply to: 450’s too fast, fact or fiction?