Do you like the pro motocross points scoring system?

TXDirt
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See if you can follow this. Hopefully I did all the math right.

Rider A and Rider B are competing in the motocross nationals.

Round 1, Rider A gets a first and a third for second overall and gets 45 points.

Round 1, Rider B gets a second and a first for first overall and gets 47 points.

Now for the remaining 11 rounds Rider B wins all the first motos and Rider A places second. Rider A wins all of the second motos, Rider B places second, and thus Rider A wins the next 11 overalls.

So the end of the year points would look like this.

Rider A ends season with 562 points and 11 Overall Wins and one second overall.

Rider B ends season with 564 points with 1 Overall win and 11 second overalls.

Rider B wins the championship.

Do you think any additional points should count towards an overall win? Like one point for whoever gets the overall for that weekend?

This points scenario is hypothetical obviously, but seems strange we have a point system that could produce this outcome.

Thoughts?
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Kawi4life
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9/19/2016 8:47am
When's the last time MX had a close points showdown since the Emig/McGrath showdown in '96?
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FastGzus
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9/19/2016 8:53am
I've never liked that the 2nd Moto win more then a 1st Moto win. Imo it should be an overall tie or have overall time be the tie breaker.

If rider A wins the 1st Moto in a '15 Tomac fashion 1 min plus then loses the 2nd Moto in a steel city RD vs RV fashion (less then a second) imo Rider A was the better rider that day. If we feel the need to break the tie:
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MX Guy
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9/19/2016 9:27am Edited Date/Time 9/19/2016 9:29am
One point for a win, two for second, etc...that's the best way IMO.
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9/19/2016 9:34am
I have been thinking about this lately as well.

I think one more point for every position in moto 2 would make the second motos very interesting.
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The Shop

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9/19/2016 9:37am Edited Date/Time 9/19/2016 9:40am
TXDirt wrote:
See if you can follow this. Hopefully I did all the math right. Rider A and Rider B are competing in the motocross nationals. Round 1...
See if you can follow this. Hopefully I did all the math right.

Rider A and Rider B are competing in the motocross nationals.

Round 1, Rider A gets a first and a third for second overall and gets 45 points.

Round 1, Rider B gets a second and a first for first overall and gets 47 points.

Now for the remaining 11 rounds Rider B wins all the first motos and Rider A places second. Rider A wins all of the second motos, Rider B places second, and thus Rider A wins the next 11 overalls.

So the end of the year points would look like this.

Rider A ends season with 562 points and 11 Overall Wins and one second overall.

Rider B ends season with 564 points with 1 Overall win and 11 second overalls.

Rider B wins the championship.

Do you think any additional points should count towards an overall win? Like one point for whoever gets the overall for that weekend?

This points scenario is hypothetical obviously, but seems strange we have a point system that could produce this outcome.

Thoughts?
So rider B has better results but less overall wins and wins the championship. He still had better results for the season.

2nd moto finish makes endurance, strategy and rising to the higher stakes of the second moto important.

Overall time is complicated and boring.
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TXDirt
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9/19/2016 9:51am
I've kinda always found it strange there is no benefit to winning the overall. As far as points are concerned second overall is equal to first overall.
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9/19/2016 9:59am
TXDirt wrote:
I've kinda always found it strange there is no benefit to winning the overall. As far as points are concerned second overall is equal to first...
I've kinda always found it strange there is no benefit to winning the overall. As far as points are concerned second overall is equal to first overall.
What if you gave out overall championship points in addition to the moto points. Pay 25 points to the top 20 in motos then 40-1 for everyone according to overall. Complicated, but would make the overall finish more important.
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TXDirt
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9/19/2016 10:08am
The current way we do the points takes a bit of drama out. It's incredibly difficult to make up points. Tomac could go on an overall win streak and not make up a single point. Just using that as an example. I like the point system we have now but also think they should award points for overall finish. Maybe like 10 for first overall. 7 for second. 5 for 3rd and then whatever for the rest of the top ten.

Something like that so there is an actually benefit of winning the overall.
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kkawboy14
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9/19/2016 10:20am
Well both riders got a first and a second, the points should be the same. The guy who got the over all gets paid more cash and a better trophy.
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SCR
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9/19/2016 10:30am
1 point for first, two for second, etc. Tie breaker at end of year goes to most moto wins. Still tie then most overall wins. Still at tie ? Then bare knuckle cage fight. Two men enter one man leaves. Pretty sure that's how they did it back in the day.
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ACBraap
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9/19/2016 10:51am
No, I think there are at least two problems with the current point structure.

1. Overall wins really mean nothing. It's the points that count, and being first overall vs second overall when tied on points makes no difference.

2. Points should be awarded for every rider that finishes the moto. There should be incentive for making that pass for 34th vs 35th, as well as finishing vs a DNF. This change might provide more battles throughout the pack.
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9/19/2016 10:56am
Riders who win a moto already get an extra point! Rider A finished first 12 times and 2nd 12 times. rider B finished first 12 times and 2nd 11 times plus a 3rd.

If any change is needed i think they should go to 30 points 27, 25, 23, 21, 20----1 and pay 25 spots.
vosser130
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9/19/2016 10:57am
I have always found it interesting that someone could go 35-19 and still score more points than someone who goes 21-21. In normal moto scoring, the 21-21 would have a better overall.
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ACBraap
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9/19/2016 10:57am
The Chase, dumb as it is, has been mentioned only for SX though as far as I know.
TXDirt
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9/19/2016 11:10am
ACBraap wrote:
The Chase, dumb as it is, has been mentioned only for SX though as far as I know.
Definitely don't think we need a chase format for MX. Was just thinking that there should be a reward for the rider who gets the overall. It clearly does have meaning since riders get paid big bonuses for winning the overall. But the way the points system works there is no reward for winning the overall.

When you look at this:

Rider A ends season with 562 points and 11 Overall Wins and one second overall.

Rider B ends season with 564 points with 1 Overall win and 11 second overalls.

To me Rider A should be the championship winner. Lets assume that you give 1 extra point for an overall win. Rider A would win with 573 points vs Rider B who has 565 points.

Current points system does not place any value on the overall which seems strange.
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9/19/2016 11:39am Edited Date/Time 9/19/2016 11:39am
Why not pay out points until the overalls are tallied ?

30-27-24-21-19. . . Etc. or something similar

Why do they pay points per moto ? Is it because if some super star blows a motor his season isn't completely wrecked? 1-DNF should be like 25-30th overall. Hard to make up that gap.

I like how amatuer Mx is scored better personally. But maybe there's better reasons for scoring per moto...
Robgvx
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9/19/2016 11:51am
British Superbike points: system:

25 points for a win, then 20, 16, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.


With 5 points earned for a win over second, and 9 compared to 3rd, this system rewards race wins far more than the MX system does.

The problem with the MX system is that there isn't enough of a reward for actually winning races. Consistency is rewarded instead, and any rider suffering a DNF finds it really hard to catch up in the points.


TXDirt
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9/19/2016 11:59am
With the current per moto points system I think this sometimes makes the second motos anticlimactic. A rider who won the first moto will occasionally mail it in on the second moto and just take second because they know there is no points gain on them because no points are paid for overall wins.

So a 1-2 and second overall is the exact same as a 2-1 and first overall according to the points system. How can second equal first? It shouldn't but that's what the points system says.
lostboy819
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9/19/2016 12:20pm
Robgvx wrote:
British Superbike points: system: [quote]25 points for a win, then 20, 16, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. [/quote] With...
British Superbike points: system:

25 points for a win, then 20, 16, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.


With 5 points earned for a win over second, and 9 compared to 3rd, this system rewards race wins far more than the MX system does.

The problem with the MX system is that there isn't enough of a reward for actually winning races. Consistency is rewarded instead, and any rider suffering a DNF finds it really hard to catch up in the points.


I also think the win should get a few extra points over 2nd and 2nd over 3rd etc.
TXDirt
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9/20/2016 6:42am
Robgvx wrote:
British Superbike points: system: [quote]25 points for a win, then 20, 16, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. [/quote] With...
British Superbike points: system:

25 points for a win, then 20, 16, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.


With 5 points earned for a win over second, and 9 compared to 3rd, this system rewards race wins far more than the MX system does.

The problem with the MX system is that there isn't enough of a reward for actually winning races. Consistency is rewarded instead, and any rider suffering a DNF finds it really hard to catch up in the points.


lostboy819 wrote:
I also think the win should get a few extra points over 2nd and 2nd over 3rd etc.
I agree with this. It doesn't make sense that a guy with 11 overalls and a second overall would lose to a rider with 1 overall and 11 second overalls.
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9/20/2016 7:09am
I still don't get why the person who wins the overall doesn't necessarily get the most points.
tcallahan707
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9/20/2016 7:56am
TXDirt wrote:
With the current per moto points system I think this sometimes makes the second motos anticlimactic. A rider who won the first moto will occasionally mail...
With the current per moto points system I think this sometimes makes the second motos anticlimactic. A rider who won the first moto will occasionally mail it in on the second moto and just take second because they know there is no points gain on them because no points are paid for overall wins.

So a 1-2 and second overall is the exact same as a 2-1 and first overall according to the points system. How can second equal first? It shouldn't but that's what the points system says.
I'm not saying it's the best system but the $100k bonus might create some incentive.

I do think points should be paid back to 40th. Then remove 250SX points from the equation when determining earned numbers. And then fix the stupid number assigning system.
Robgvx
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9/20/2016 12:05pm
MX Guy wrote:
One point for a win, two for second, etc...that's the best way IMO.
Wink
DNF a moto and you're 40 points down. How are you going to recoup those at only one point gain over second place each moto thereafter?
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lostboy819
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9/20/2016 12:08pm
Winning should be a big bonus with extra points because that is what its all about. The drawback is a guy who wins a bunch runs away with the points but then again that is not really a drawback because a dominant rider show be running away with the points.
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motogrady
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9/20/2016 12:14pm

Ahhhhhhh...........second moto winner breaks the tie, and points towards the Championship come from the overall only.

Make motocross motocross.
731chopper
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9/20/2016 12:28pm
Kawi4life wrote:
When's the last time MX had a close points showdown since the Emig/McGrath showdown in '96?
The point spread between the two at the end was 10 points.

It was only 12 points between Villopoto and Dungey in 2011.

14 point difference between Dungey and Roczen in 2014.
Mit12
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9/20/2016 3:17pm
The points system works great second moto is the tie breaker. How is this for confusing. I got third overall with 2-2 moto finishes. 3-1 beats a 1-3 and a 2-2.
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Phillip_Lamb
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9/20/2016 3:48pm
TXDirt wrote:
See if you can follow this. Hopefully I did all the math right. Rider A and Rider B are competing in the motocross nationals. Round 1...
See if you can follow this. Hopefully I did all the math right.

Rider A and Rider B are competing in the motocross nationals.

Round 1, Rider A gets a first and a third for second overall and gets 45 points.

Round 1, Rider B gets a second and a first for first overall and gets 47 points.

Now for the remaining 11 rounds Rider B wins all the first motos and Rider A places second. Rider A wins all of the second motos, Rider B places second, and thus Rider A wins the next 11 overalls.

So the end of the year points would look like this.

Rider A ends season with 562 points and 11 Overall Wins and one second overall.

Rider B ends season with 564 points with 1 Overall win and 11 second overalls.

Rider B wins the championship.

Do you think any additional points should count towards an overall win? Like one point for whoever gets the overall for that weekend?

This points scenario is hypothetical obviously, but seems strange we have a point system that could produce this outcome.

Thoughts?
i see the conundrum you have found.

but overalls have more to do with the days event not the full season of work. Rider B had all the same finishes except at the first round where rider A had a worse moto.

best way to look at this. THINK of every moto as its own individual race, with this in mind weekends are actually a "Double Header" with two awards, an award for winning an individual race, and an award for best weekend performance.


championships are about earning the most points, overalls are about being the fastest on one weekend
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