The Ukraine is in a tight spot

10/4/2024 10:51am
The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our...

The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our allies.  Even when it gets hard.  

TeamGreen wrote:
When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this...

When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…

What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…

What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this war…

The cause and effect seems to be left out of the conversations & critical thinking…which was needed BEFORE the shit hit the fan…is still in short supply. 

The United States helped create this nightmare. That’s lost on far too many people. Ukraine WAS NOT a NATO member; yet, we’ve thrown “beyond NATO” money amd resources at this war…their war…Europe’s war…and…again, we are core to the cause of this war.

Like I said, critical thinking is in short supply. 

They are a US proxy. 

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Twigster
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10/4/2024 11:05am
The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our...

The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our allies.  Even when it gets hard.  

TeamGreen wrote:
When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this...

When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…

What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…

What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this war…

The cause and effect seems to be left out of the conversations & critical thinking…which was needed BEFORE the shit hit the fan…is still in short supply. 

The United States helped create this nightmare. That’s lost on far too many people. Ukraine WAS NOT a NATO member; yet, we’ve thrown “beyond NATO” money amd resources at this war…their war…Europe’s war…and…again, we are core to the cause of this war.

Like I said, critical thinking is in short supply. 

I’m curious. You keep saying that the US helped cause the conflict, but simultaneously seem to want to wash your hands of it? 

Not going to dispute mistakes being made over the last ten years since Russia annexed Crimea, or that everyone in Europe has been so focussed on looking inwards that everyone took security and peace for granted. Think that’s probably all a matter of record that’s beyond dispute. Just trying to clear a few things up. 

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byke
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10/4/2024 11:11am
The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our...

The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our allies.  Even when it gets hard.  

TeamGreen wrote:
When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this...

When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…

What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…

What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this war…

The cause and effect seems to be left out of the conversations & critical thinking…which was needed BEFORE the shit hit the fan…is still in short supply. 

The United States helped create this nightmare. That’s lost on far too many people. Ukraine WAS NOT a NATO member; yet, we’ve thrown “beyond NATO” money amd resources at this war…their war…Europe’s war…and…again, we are core to the cause of this war.

Like I said, critical thinking is in short supply. 

Aspiring to join the EU/NATO is also perfectly legal, whereas invading a country and murdering their people is not. It's not a critical thinking problem, it's not simple in any way, or else these problems would have been sorted out long ago. Beware of anyone thinking any major problems are easy to solve.

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lappedrider
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10/4/2024 11:11am
The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our...

The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our allies.  Even when it gets hard.  

TeamGreen wrote:
When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this...

When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…

What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…

What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this war…

The cause and effect seems to be left out of the conversations & critical thinking…which was needed BEFORE the shit hit the fan…is still in short supply. 

The United States helped create this nightmare. That’s lost on far too many people. Ukraine WAS NOT a NATO member; yet, we’ve thrown “beyond NATO” money amd resources at this war…their war…Europe’s war…and…again, we are core to the cause of this war.

Like I said, critical thinking is in short supply. 

I mostly agree with you.  But the reality is the United States made a promise to a non NATO country that was afraid of Russian aggression.  Give up your deterrent nukes and we will come to your aid when needed.  

I am not of the belief that the US then started pushing NATO membership closer and closer to the Russian border.  I believe that is a false narrative and the bigger reality of countries in the region were looking for help with dictator coming to power in Russia, and the US was perhaps over willing to help.   

All that said, the people of Ukraine and their independence is what matters.  We made a promise.  For me it’s simple.  Add to that we are mostly just getting rid of old ordnance and helping our economy by replacing our reserves.  

Tooele Army base is across the valley from me.  The disposal range is much quieter these days.  

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The Shop

Zycki11
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10/4/2024 11:16am
I have 16 people working for me who live in Ashville.  They all tell me the response has been amazing given the reality.  So not sure...

I have 16 people working for me who live in Ashville.  They all tell me the response has been amazing given the reality.  So not sure what’s pathetic? 

Spurdo wrote:
Yeah, I guess your right. Not sure what I was thinking there. Picture completely unrelated. You should just ignore it. 
Screenshot 20241003-202308 Chrome.jpg?VersionId=zecTnV3VHJzw6gIYMJkF

Yeah, I guess your right. Not sure what I was thinking there. Picture completely unrelated. You should just ignore it. 

I check in with my people everyday.  They are all eating food provided by federal resources. Drinking water provided by federal resources.   And taking showers...

I check in with my people everyday.  They are all eating food provided by federal resources. Drinking water provided by federal resources.   And taking showers set up and managed by federal resources.  But yes, you have provided completely unbiased evidence to the contrary……

Last I heard there were 80k line crews in the region.  And I know many crews that are there.  

That isn't entirely accurate.  I know someone having to give money and supplies while FEMA is blocking them. First hand knowledge So take everything with a grain of salt

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Spoonguy
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10/4/2024 6:02pm
The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our...

The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our allies.  Even when it gets hard.  

Of course we help our allies.  Or "live up to promises". But an ally means someone that helps you when you have problems as well. Is there a lot of nations sending aid to the Carolinas now? Ukraine's aid is not "hard", it is total. They demand we totally fund defense, negotiations, and rebuilding. Actually most of their federal budget too now, right?  For what? So more Americans in the USA do without? So more Americans owe more to federal debt? So more Americans pay more taxes? So more American vets have less medical care or homeless aid? As Allies what will Ukraine do for us? That is how alliances work, allies help one another. Why do we have a fight with Russia, we as a team defeated fascism not to long ago historically. Ukraine is an ally of the USA? In what respect, besides needing us for arbitrary reasons.

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Spoonguy
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10/4/2024 6:12pm
The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our...

The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our allies.  Even when it gets hard.  

TeamGreen wrote:
When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this...

When you look at what -we- did leading up to this war…

What we’ve spent on a Non-NATO nation…

What Europe should have…could have…done leading up to this war…

The cause and effect seems to be left out of the conversations & critical thinking…which was needed BEFORE the shit hit the fan…is still in short supply. 

The United States helped create this nightmare. That’s lost on far too many people. Ukraine WAS NOT a NATO member; yet, we’ve thrown “beyond NATO” money amd resources at this war…their war…Europe’s war…and…again, we are core to the cause of this war.

Like I said, critical thinking is in short supply. 

I mostly agree with you.  But the reality is the United States made a promise to a non NATO country that was afraid of Russian aggression...

I mostly agree with you.  But the reality is the United States made a promise to a non NATO country that was afraid of Russian aggression.  Give up your deterrent nukes and we will come to your aid when needed.  

I am not of the belief that the US then started pushing NATO membership closer and closer to the Russian border.  I believe that is a false narrative and the bigger reality of countries in the region were looking for help with dictator coming to power in Russia, and the US was perhaps over willing to help.   

All that said, the people of Ukraine and their independence is what matters.  We made a promise.  For me it’s simple.  Add to that we are mostly just getting rid of old ordnance and helping our economy by replacing our reserves.  

Tooele Army base is across the valley from me.  The disposal range is much quieter these days.  

Imagine the poorest county next to yours. Imagine the USA government giving one twentieth of the aid to your fellow Americans in that county that they give to the Ukraine. You don't think that will save lives, give "independence"? My heart hurts for the Ukranian people. As a Christian we need to pray for peace for these people. But there is too much pain in our own midst with our own neighbors to ignore and send aid overseas. And it appears our "aid" just prolongs bloodshed and violence there anyways. We need to cut to the chase there, a resolution is possible to end the waste of life and resources.

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byke
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10/4/2024 6:21pm Edited Date/Time 10/4/2024 6:33pm

Super hard not to support a country being invaded like that, especially a country that wants to be part of the west. It's not in any of our traditional values, how any of us were raised, save for some pacifist hippies somewhere. There's also a connection to not negotiating with terrorists, even though sometimes I think we all realize that it probably happens sometimes. It's just so unAmerican to fold our cards to a bully that it cuts deep. Think I'd rather die than kiss the ring. This  country exists because of courageous people that refused to kiss the ring. Ukraine seems to feel the same way and I find that honorable, whereas literally nothing Russia is doing over there is honorable. At the same time, if you had to suck a dick in order to survive, maybe that's worth doing so you can live to fight another day, I don't know, but I know that from the comfort of my own chair, sucking is off the table.  

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plowboy
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10/5/2024 11:43am
byke wrote:
Super hard not to support a country being invaded like that, especially a country that wants to be part of the west. It's not in any...

Super hard not to support a country being invaded like that, especially a country that wants to be part of the west. It's not in any of our traditional values, how any of us were raised, save for some pacifist hippies somewhere. There's also a connection to not negotiating with terrorists, even though sometimes I think we all realize that it probably happens sometimes. It's just so unAmerican to fold our cards to a bully that it cuts deep. Think I'd rather die than kiss the ring. This  country exists because of courageous people that refused to kiss the ring. Ukraine seems to feel the same way and I find that honorable, whereas literally nothing Russia is doing over there is honorable. At the same time, if you had to suck a dick in order to survive, maybe that's worth doing so you can live to fight another day, I don't know, but I know that from the comfort of my own chair, sucking is off the table.  

I could share a drink with you.

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Flatliner
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10/5/2024 12:23pm Edited Date/Time 10/5/2024 12:24pm
The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our...

The part of America I want to be great again is the part where we want to live up to the promises we make to our allies.  Even when it gets hard.  

What does that look like to you?  How much money specifically ?

 

Edited.  Is it money?  soldiers?  equipment?

APLMAN99
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10/29/2024 12:17pm

So with the reports of North Korean troops being involved now, what would be the main reason for it?  Has Russia lost far more troops than estimated, or does NK need the cash so badly that they are basically selling their troops as cannon fodder?  

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whyZ
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10/29/2024 1:03pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
So with the reports of North Korean troops being involved now, what would be the main reason for it?  Has Russia lost far more troops than...

So with the reports of North Korean troops being involved now, what would be the main reason for it?  Has Russia lost far more troops than estimated, or does NK need the cash so badly that they are basically selling their troops as cannon fodder?  

It means that the Biden/ Harris administration screwed the pooch on this one too.  Who knows what it means, who knows what will happen, how far it will reach, how long will it last, how many lives lost.  All that is known is that it's one of the worst possible scenarios.    

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Spoonguy
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10/29/2024 1:55pm

North Korea is nuclear capable, they might end up being the bad guys.

Bearuno
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10/29/2024 2:57pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
So with the reports of North Korean troops being involved now, what would be the main reason for it?  Has Russia lost far more troops than...

So with the reports of North Korean troops being involved now, what would be the main reason for it?  Has Russia lost far more troops than estimated, or does NK need the cash so badly that they are basically selling their troops as cannon fodder?  

Both.

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Twigster
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10/29/2024 3:03pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
So with the reports of North Korean troops being involved now, what would be the main reason for it?  Has Russia lost far more troops than...

So with the reports of North Korean troops being involved now, what would be the main reason for it?  Has Russia lost far more troops than estimated, or does NK need the cash so badly that they are basically selling their troops as cannon fodder?  

Both, but if it helps NK troops even their best are untested and inexperienced. The language barrier also means the Russians don't want them near the frontline so all they're really doing is logistical stuff. It's more symbolic than effective. Also, they're limited to being in Kursk not operating in Ukraine. 

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APLMAN99
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10/29/2024 8:36pm
APLMAN99 wrote:
So with the reports of North Korean troops being involved now, what would be the main reason for it?  Has Russia lost far more troops than...

So with the reports of North Korean troops being involved now, what would be the main reason for it?  Has Russia lost far more troops than estimated, or does NK need the cash so badly that they are basically selling their troops as cannon fodder?  

Twigster wrote:
Both, but if it helps NK troops even their best are untested and inexperienced. The language barrier also means the Russians don't want them near the...

Both, but if it helps NK troops even their best are untested and inexperienced. The language barrier also means the Russians don't want them near the frontline so all they're really doing is logistical stuff. It's more symbolic than effective. Also, they're limited to being in Kursk not operating in Ukraine. 

Several reports say that the 'plan' is to have the NK troops trained and in combat roles by Sunday. I guess we'll see if it happens close to that way. 

It does make me wonder a little bit if Russian conscripts are simply not showing up after they are drafted. if enough just refused to report, how much resources would they have to spend to enforce the draft efforts and what effect would it have on their ability to keep their staff levels high enough to continue their attacks in Ukraine?

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