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Regarding the sound issue, if the class is all electric, there IS enough noise for them to be able to hear each other without needing silly noise devices.
This is not complicated, if they have their own class, there is no problem. The only problem is people trying to force mixed classes that should not be mixed - have their own class, all problems solved. I do not doubt at all that we in a transition period similar to the 2t to 4t, let it play out, and all of the folks that are hell-bent on electric will get what they want eventually. In the interim, all problems are solved by having a dedicated e-class that will probably sooner than later, be the majority.
Cobra already has an electric 50, now in it's second generation. According to parents of little rippers, it's faster than the KTM/Husky/GG e50s. And racing has gotten back to what it should be, with OEMs investing money in developing better technology to win races, and that technology ends up on the hands of consumers.
With electric, the added benifit of less maintainence. As a parent of a former SX50 racer, that was a special place in hell!! Many crying mornings by my young son when I couldn't get the bike to run at all, or run so poorly it wasn't ridable/raceable.
So here's where I'm a little confused about all this AMA stuff, if I buy one, can I race it locally at an AMA sanctioned race in age classes? I saw pictures of one at the last local race, but unsure if it was fully allowed or just "you can take a gate drop and not get scored" type of thing?
I got the chance to ride one at a private track back to back with my 450, and holy hell do I want one bad now. I will say, I came up behind somebody who was cruising and they had no idea I was behind them, they were swerving all over. So it's on the rider to not run into someone in front of you.
Not what I intended to imply. And people forget that a Varg is not silent. It can be ridden so that it is near silent. But
Earplugs on average will reduce sound by 20-30 DB. The style I wear while running loud things drops the sound by 36DB . According to the rules for pro racing the current sound limit is 112 DB. At one point is was as low as 96 db. Lets say that You only factor in the ear plugs sound reduction and take them at the rated value. That drops the sound down to 76 DB. A Varg is about 60DB . Back when bikes were restricted to 96DB, wearing earplugs could have put You at the same sound level as a Varg.
A quick google search and I found some tests that show some helmets being 5 to 8 DB quieter than others . But I did not use anything but the reduction from ear plugs
Lets say that You don't get the advertised sound reduction or you wear some plugs that are not as good and You only get an 18DB reduction. And again do not account for any sound reduction by the helmet . You are still at a 36DB difference. A whisper is about 25DB , the average range of DB ratings for a residential style fridge in 2024 is 32 to 47DB .
So riding with earplugs in is going to get You within a whisper of what the Varg's sound level was the point I was making. Sure You can not pull in the clutch and rev it to make people hear You behind them. But that shouldn't really be necessary with a gas bike either since nobody ever has a problem with a gas bike sneaking up behind them right?
Is the lack of sound a problem? perhaps to a very small degree. But it seems like such an easy problem to solve that it sounds like a cop out to me. But that is the only way of keeping electrics from racing heads up against gas bikes. If You stick to the more valid in my opinion power style/level issue. That goes away when You talk Vet and open classes.
I've got to think that some of the resistance is loyalty to the brands that have been pouring millions into the sport for decades. In a way, that would be nice of the AMA to do. Even though I want to see Electrics racing ICE bikes. I want to see Stark be able to race as much as anybody . I want to see what one of the best of the best could do on one. Or an electric from another brand. But at the same time I see multiple reasons it is taking a while to work out how to do it. I may not like or agree with a lot of them. But when I try and see things from other perspectives I can see reasons. The sound one is just the weaker of them in my opinion.
The Shop
I hadn't looked at Cobra in a longtime. I should have just checked before I posted. I thought they had the 50 class electric but I wasn't 100% sure and was in a rush to get some other stuff done. Thank You for making sure I was not putting bad info out there. Last rumors I heard was they were working on a gas 85 and electric 65 class bike. I had a customer that was a dealer for them many years ago .
Electrics will benefit brands like Fantic and Cobra. Smaller brands. Maybe someday we will see a full sized Cobra with a Yamaha electric powertrain. If they only have to develop a rolling chassis , it is much easier to do than building an ICE engine from scratch along with a chassis.
Look at MTB's A lot of brands will make or design just the frames and spec out components from other companies. And as a result You have 100's of brands building bicycles. Yamaha is supplying motors and batteries for e bikes for many brands. Gasgas emtb's come with Yamaha motors and controllers. Yamaha also has a history of working with Arctic cat suppling gas engines .That's why I could see them doing a similar thing with electric MX stuff. How funny would it be to have a Suzuki electric that has a Yamaha motor. Right now it sounds silly, but it could be a part of a path to less expensive electric powered MX bikes.
If not being able to hear them behind you is a reason to not let them race then they should also ban the loud as fuck Yamaha 4 strokes. Been cross jumped more than once by them because they can't hear you behind them if you're on a 2 stroke.
Look been riding and racing for 55 years now the last six years on a electric. Was taught at the beginning of my racing career. It was the person behind responsibility to make sure they do not put themselves in the bad spot. The lead person has choice of lines. Especially learned that in 1981 on my Can-Am MX six which was as quiet as my Stark.
To me, I believe the big problem with a E-bike is in practice situations where they are different level of riders on the track at the same time. How many times have you have a faster guy come flying by or over you on a practice day and scare the shit out of you? In a racing situation, you are riding with guy's that are the same caliper of rider that you are.
That’s why when practicing on a E-bike you have to be super aware of everyone that’s out there.
I don’t care if you are on a dinosaur burning bike or a dinosaur charge bike in practice situations, Don’t be that squid. Enjoy the ride.
You should check with the AMA for exact details but my understanding is this:
1. Big electric bikes can only ride in their own class in AMA sanctioned events IF the promoter chooses to create a class for them.
There may be promoters that don’t follow the rules.
Also, much of the local racing I do is not AMA sanctioned (don’t need an AMA member number to sign up), and that is obviously up to each individual promotor.
I race my Stark in the vet classes with ICE bikes. I am very careful around other riders because they can’t hear you. The bigger the speed differential the worse it becomes. Especially if you have some riders doing gapped jumps and others not doing them. Happens a lot in vet classes.
That being said, it’s 100pct doable to have electric ride with ICE in all classes with a little cooperation between AMA and manufacturers. Seems like both sides are not as cooperative as they could be, to everyone’s detriment. Using the Mathes blame pie, I put 75 pct on Stsrk and 25 pct on AMA.
25 years of Club and National Motocross experience tells me that it was a unique experience.
I don't consider my one-off experience to be the be-all, end-all of the argument but it is a relevant data point that stacks up with others having had the same experience. It also gells with the other riders on the day having the same experience. Enough for it to be a serious discussion there at the time.
I'm not all in on the sound/safety argument but to me, it's not as unfounded as your trying to make out.
I think a separate class resolves all the issues, sound, parity and so on.
Dont leave the door open and you wont have the "sketchy" moments. I have profound hearing loss and have had it all my life and with my hearing aids out and helmet on I don't hear much of anything so like ando said, I don't buy the safety aspect the AMA is trying to sell. 😅
Yeah, if not being able to hear people behind you is such a huge safety hazard, shouldn't the AMA have banned Ashley Fiolek from racing all those years?
Bring back the Vizor Vue! Good enought for the King of Cool!
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We allow riders to wear earplugs, but we don’t allow riders to force everyone else on the gate to wear earplugs
This sound issue is analagous to the old argument about seat belts not being safe because it can be harder for rescue crews to extract you from a crashed vehicle.
Agree. Why are Yamahas allowed on the track? Feels a bit hillybilly monster trucking to allow such loud bikes in this day of age when tracks are closing due to sound.
"Stark Future would like to take the opportunity to thank AMA for using Big Hill Jam as a case study for future regulations. We are pleased with the results, which demonstrated that all bikes can coexist on the track."
Hi Mike, any truth in that?
Do you have any feedback from national federations or promoters already allowing electrics racing with ICE (Australia, France, Spain, Italy, UK, Slovenia, Hungary, Austria, Estonia, Sweden...)?
I think an interesting often ignored (although may have been covered here) sample is the CRF150R debacle.
AMA got cold feet and pushed the bike to the supermini class against 112cc two strokes making as much HP as the original yzf250… hence it had no hope… and after 5 or 6 years of trying to get the bike to perform it’s basically scrapped and I presume their was zero at the ranch? Maybe one in the girls 125 class where linear power and lower height compared to a 125 can be an advantage (and the skill drop off is much steeper)…
Do we consider this an effective integration?
To me eradicating it seems like a terrible integration. Putting that bike in its own class would have also been terrible.
The ideal would have been. Having a particular exhaust requirement that limited power or limiting it to the stock class for the 85cc class and a 175cc limit in the super mini class would have allowed integration. Instead it has been banished.
I am going to have to agree with you on this one. I have a yz450 and I have had a 2 stroke surprise me on way more than one occasion. I have never cross jumped on one, because I hold my line, but it does kind of freak me out a bit when you throw your leg out in a corner and there is somebody's front wheel that wasn't there a half second ago. I have 2 other bikes and it's not as bad as the yamaha for sure.
Pit Row
The solution is SIMPLE! Just let them have their own class, then let’s see if it grows or not.
Back in the day 4 strokes had their own class/race. Imagine that...
Funny that you mention this, I’m 80% deaf and when I put my helmet on it’s worse. Been dealing with it most of my mx life and it’s worse for me on practice days now because I’m old, 62, and slow. At least in a mx race I’m with the same or similar age group.
It’s really bad when going to a MTB park on DH trails 🥵 worse bunch of idiot's ever, not all but most..
They need cards in their spokes….
The parity problem is just an excuse. Do you think there is parody between a factory bike versus a privateers bike? Hell, they let the unsafe Suzuki compete when they don’t have any electric start. How safe is that? A guy setting in the middle of the track kick starting his bike.
If it’ a quiet bike is more dangerous than why are they lowering the decibels levels next year. Isn’t. that dangerous?
Why are the major manufactures who build the trick baddest motocross bikes on the planet scared of a stock motorcycle from a startup company?
The hole thing is about Money and who’s palm gets greased. Just like the blue states not allowing Stark to sell bikes in there states
Yes, I think there is parody between Pro factory bikes and privateer's bikes.
The claiming rule at Loretta Lyn's is parody in amateur racing.
If only there was parity!
Now we know what to do with all those train horns at the nationals...
Every electric vehicle should have a horn/noise device standard. Adding a noise device to an electric moto is such a simple solution I don't see how that can be a sticking point.
Worth pointing out that e-motos and gas bike raced together before the Stark.
https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/electric-bikes/first-full-sized-electric…
Sad part is that its the AMA that we are hoping will make good decisions on the new class of E bikes, what makes anyone think the AMA will get it right this time because after all its still the AMA. 😝
I have been surprised by guys on 500’s quite a few times and they sure aren’t quiet
500s are typically run very low in the RPMs so yeah that's not a surprise Lol!! I've beenI've been surprised a couple times at Cahuill with the Electric little sketchy I can see where the issue is. And yes I also ride mountain bikes big big difference you can hear the chain slap and tires on the ground so you know where everybody's at!
Or actually follow their own rule book when it's inconvenient😂
Post a reply to: Re: Stark-My conversation with Mike Burkeen, AMA Deputy Director of Racing